View Poll Results: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?

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  • Yes, civil unions are an acceptable compromise.

    17 16.19%
  • No, they are not, because:

    55 52.38%
  • The government should not be involved with marriage, at all.

    25 23.81%
  • Other (Please Explain)

    8 7.62%
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Thread: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

  1. #741
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Now you are changing your argument midstream. My argument is that the source of peoples' motivations for voting for one law or another is immaterial. If I vote for higher taxes, it does not matter if I do so because I think that the wealthy should pay more or if I do so because I think Jesus would want me to - my decision as a sovereign individual belongs to me and I can make it for whatever reason I wish.
    No, your argument was that US law came from christianity, which is **** you made up because you wanted to believe it.

    Fear and emotion? No, simple judgement. You want them to be based on fear, ignorance, and emotion because it allows you to discount the opposition.
    If you ever formulated an argument that was not based on fear, ignorance or emotion, I might believe you. However, your arguments have had zero logic.

    Which isn't what I asked, but is interesting.
    What did you want to know then?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #742
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Your argument was 100 % contingent on that.
    That is incorrect. You appear not to understand my argument, which, given that you seek only to deride it your opposition as being driven by fear, ignorance, and emotion is not terribly surprising. My argument is contingent upon the notion that we are discussing an alteration in the public definition of marriage away from a connection with stable family formation and towards simply "two non-related adults who love each other" (though those "emotional, fear-driven hatreds" will no doubt fall in their own time).

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, your argument was that US law came from christianity, which is **** you made up because you wanted to believe it.
    That is incorrect - Firstly, my argument was that much of our law is put into place from motivation that comes from Christian belief. Secondly, that argument was accepted from the initiation of that discussion, explicitly by the claim that our current definition of marriage flowed from that Christian standard.

    If you ever formulated an argument that was not based on fear, ignorance or emotion, I might believe you. However, your arguments have had zero logic.
    sure. circular just-so logic may keep you warm at night and assured of your moral superiority, but it's not very convincing.

    What did you want to know then?
    Stable family formation.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. You appear not to understand my argument, which, given that you seek only to deride it your opposition as being driven by fear, ignorance, and emotion is not terribly surprising. My argument is contingent upon the notion that we are discussing an alteration in the public definition of marriage away from a connection with stable family formation and towards simply "two non-related adults who love each other" (though those "emotional, fear-driven hatreds" will no doubt fall in their own time).
    SSM is a stable family formation. You again seem to not realize that gay people have families.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect - Firstly, my argument was that much of our law is put into place from motivation that comes from Christian belief. Secondly, that argument was accepted from the initiation of that discussion, explicitly by the claim that our current definition of marriage flowed from that Christian standard.
    A few laws had christian justifications, but not many and most of those are now gone. Accepted by whom?

    sure. circular just-so logic may keep you warm at night and assured of your moral superiority, but it's not very convincing.
    Here is a thought, present a logical argument. Or if you cannot do that, counter this logic: gays have families and children. Marriage is the most stable environment to raise children in. SSM allows gays to raise their children in that stable environment, and has zero effect on nonSSM. Therefore it benefits society to allow gays to marry.

    Stable family formation.
    There is no evidence that SSM is less stable than straight marriage.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    SSM is a stable family formation. You again seem to not realize that gay people have families.
    I realize that gay people can have families. I think that they are statistically less likely to for stable pairs, but that's becoming a problem with the hetero's as well, and I recognize that they can. I don't have a problem with stable couples adopting - better two mommies than the State. That is not my issue - my issue is the redefinition of marriage away from a focus on stable two-parent family formation for the raising of children and towards "two people who love each other", which is what you seem to be either missing or avoiding.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A few laws had christian justifications, but not many and most of those are now gone.
    On the contrary, Christianity actively informs much of the basis of our legal system, and they are certainly not gone.

    Accepted by whom?
    you'll notice you came into that conversation halfway through?

    Here is a thought, present a logical argument.
    It's a nice little circular thing you do. Declare that there is no logical argument against homosexual marriage, declare any argument raised to be illogical, and then declare victory in your original claim.

    Or if you cannot do that, counter this logic: gays have families and children.
    Many more have children than stable two-parent families; as we saw when researchers started studying the children as opposed to the self-selecting parents.

    Marriage is the most stable environment to raise children in
    That is not correct. Married biological parents is the most stable environment to raise children in.

    SSM allows gays to raise their children in that stable environment, and has zero effect on nonSSM. Therefore it benefits society to allow gays to marry.
    Civil Unions allow those stable SS couples who wish to raise children in a stable environment to do so, without the damage to the public definition of marriage, which is socially beneficial. Therefore it is a wise compromise.

    There is no evidence that SSM is less stable than straight marriage.
    That is sadly not correct as pertains to child rearing. You may recall - CriticalThought was all up in arms about it for weeks.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I realize that gay people can have families. I think that they are statistically less likely to for stable pairs, but that's becoming a problem with the hetero's as well, and I recognize that they can. I don't have a problem with stable couples adopting - better two mommies than the State. That is not my issue - my issue is the redefinition of marriage away from a focus on stable two-parent family formation for the raising of children and towards "two people who love each other", which is what you seem to be either missing or avoiding.
    There is no data for stability of SSM compared to marriage in the US. Again, you can beleive what you want, but you have no evidence to back that up.

    SSM does not, in any way, shape nor form make marriage any more or less about stable two parent homes, nor is SSM "any two people who love each other".
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, Christianity actively informs much of the basis of our legal system, and they are certainly not gone.
    False. Most ofthe basis of our legal system and laws predates christianity.

    you'll notice you came into that conversation halfway through?
    That is one way to avoid answering a question.

    It's a nice little circular thing you do. Declare that there is no logical argument against homosexual marriage, declare any argument raised to be illogical, and then declare victory in your original claim.
    It is far from my fault that your arguments are based on emotion.
    Many more have children than stable two-parent families; as we saw when researchers started studying the children as opposed to the self-selecting parents.
    Source?

    That is not correct. Married biological parents is the most stable environment to raise children in.
    Source?

    Civil Unions allow those stable SS couples who wish to raise children in a stable environment to do so, without the damage to the public definition of marriage, which is socially beneficial. Therefore it is a wise compromise.
    You still have not even begun to show that SSM wiull have any impact on any one elses marraige. Until you do that your claim of damage is false.

    That is sadly not correct as pertains to child rearing. You may recall - CriticalThought was all up in arms about it for weeks.
    Is my name CriticalThought? I do not even normally read his posts so I have no clue what you are talking about. Can you source your claim SSM is less stable?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If we were altering our public definitions to make that the norm instead of the exception, I could see that - but given that public definition would remain centered around a pair of parents raising a child, I would imagine that any effect would be minimal.
    So, the public definition includes gays. Good to know.



    Except that you are ignoring the critical step that we must take to get There from Here - which is to redefine marriage as simply "two (presumably) adults (presumably) who love each other"
    And where in this critical step does the sudden degradation begin? What exactly is it? And how does it alter the connection? The bond between parents and offspring remain.



    I am suggesting that studies which depend upon self-selection for their sample have self-selection bias. The one major study that we have seen that worked from the perspective of children raised by homosexual parents rather than homosexual parents who volunteered for a study showed very different results, and was accordingly bitterly and acerbically attacked from all sides.
    I can suggest you several papers from credited institutes in three different First-World countries that back up my position.



    Yes, I saw that. What is that supposed to evidence?

    You said the public definition of marriage has not yet been changed. However, I'm assuming "Your Definition" underwent a slight altercation when Washington legalized SSM.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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