View Poll Results: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?

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  • Yes, civil unions are an acceptable compromise.

    17 16.19%
  • No, they are not, because:

    55 52.38%
  • The government should not be involved with marriage, at all.

    25 23.81%
  • Other (Please Explain)

    8 7.62%
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Thread: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

  1. #251
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    History 101: If there is no central institution from which a common set of values extends across the broad spectrum of society, then that society will become a set of competing tribes engaged in a zero-sum struggle for power, and will turn on itself. A house divided will not stand.
    That's not History 101. That's your perception of how society works. Your perception is flawed for two reasons: 1) It could be legitimately argued that our "house" is divided in many ways and that there are already "sets of competing tribes." 2) There could be many things other than a "central institution" that unites people or, at the very least, keeps them from harming one another.

  2. #252
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because other than the emotional charge, the situation has not changed. What was wise then is wise now.
    Oh joy, an appeal to tradition. Tradition =/= wise.

    And yes. The situation did change. It went from gays willing to compromise to being shown that compromise was not an option. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Those against gay marriage were also against civil unions. Now they are for it (willing to compromise) and the gays are not willing to compromise. Because they were shown that if it were up to those against them then they wouldn't get anything.
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  3. #253
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Oh joy, an appeal to tradition. Tradition =/= wise.
    In many things, certainly. Tradition is simply the accumulation of what people who lived before us have found to have worked best. A sort of Democracy that is not limited to the living.

    And yes. The situation did change. It went from gays willing to compromise to being shown that compromise was not an option
    that is incorrect. compromise is explicitly an option, and even more explicitly an option in this thread.

  4. #254
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's not History 101. That's your perception of how society works.
    no, that's fairly basic.

    1) It could be legitimately argued that our "house" is divided in many ways and that there are already "sets of competing tribes."
    that is correct, it could be. The argument would, however, still fall flat. We are not yet that far gone.

    2) There could be many things other than a "central institution" that unites people or, at the very least, keeps them from harming one another.
    History has demonstrated this to be incorrect. The institution does not have to be organic (for example, Tito kept the tribes of his area from attacking each other through the imposition of totalitarian dictatorship), but it does have to be there.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No, that is already legally available to them, and would be made easily so under the Civil Unions compromise, which you will note is being explicitly rejected. This isn't about a rights. It's about a name.



    Not at all. For the government to issue marriage licenses requires that the government define the qualifications for those licenses, meaning that discrimination is inherent in the deed of issuance. To define something is to place borders around it, to say "this, but not that, that but not this".



    Not at all. They are exactly where I found them when I do so.
    Would civil unions have been an acceptable compromise to the interracial marriage debate?

  6. #256
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    No, they are not, because: I am not a big believer in "separate but equal."
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  7. #257
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what people who lived before us have found to have worked best.
    Correct: Tradition is simply the accumulation of what [some of the usually small, but powerful] people who lived before us and [who lived in different times, in different societies, with less knowledge] have to have worked best [for some of them].

    compromise is explicitly an option, and even more explicitly an option in this thread.
    At this point, it's mostly an option only in the minds of those who are losing the battle over SSM.

  8. #258
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by RepublicanMcDuc View Post
    Would civil unions have been an acceptable compromise to the interracial marriage debate?
    I have no idea - it was never presented.

  9. #259
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    At this point, it's mostly an option only in the minds of those who are losing the battle over SSM.
    That is generally the way of it. Those who are more confident in their power tend to believe in pushing conflict to the bitter end, and those who are less so tend to believe in finding common ground.

  10. #260
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, that's fairly basic.

    that is correct, it could be. The argument would, however, still fall flat. We are not yet that far gone.

    History has demonstrated this to be incorrect. The institution does not have to be organic (for example, Tito kept the tribes of his area from attacking each other through the imposition of totalitarian dictatorship), but it does have to be there.
    1. No, that's your perception.

    2. No, the argument would not fall flat. For the most part, the notion that millions of people are united by a single institution or concept is a myth.

    3. No, your perception of history leads you to believe that that argument is incorrect. There does not have to be a central institution that keeps people together.

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