View Poll Results: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?

Voters
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  • Yes, civil unions are an acceptable compromise.

    17 16.19%
  • No, they are not, because:

    55 52.38%
  • The government should not be involved with marriage, at all.

    25 23.81%
  • Other (Please Explain)

    8 7.62%
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Thread: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

  1. #101
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    It is only an acceptable compromise if we let it temporarily exist with the knowledge that it will soon lead to full marriage equality. If that move is blocked, it is an awful compromise. The only acceptable posture is for homosexuals to get whatever they can from the society that reduces them to second-class citizens, and slowly turn them into accepting homosexuals fully.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-07-12 at 10:01 PM.
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It is only an acceptable compromise if we let it temporarily exist with the knowledge that it will soon lead to full marriage equality. If that move is blocked, it is an awful compromise.
    Since there appears to be some sort of momentum toward full marriage equality, I'm not sure why that compromise is necessary.

    Edit: my edit still seems relevant to your edit.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 12-07-12 at 10:05 PM.

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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Since there appears to be some sort of momentum toward full marriage equality, I'm not sure why that compromise is necessary.
    The momentum might not be enough at the moment. I hope the Supreme Court of the United States steps in and ends this democratic travesty that is in place. I don't believe in the masses getting to vote on your civil rights if you can get more headway through the feds or the courts. Sure, there have been a couple of victories, but a whole lot more defeats by letting the public decide whether or not you can get married. Gay marriage should be instituted all across the country.

    That being said, I wouldn't want to deny people more rights. I think they should get as many rights as they can. The posture I gained from considering the conservative politics in my area and how my family deals with trying to increase rights and spending on human services on effective programs, is to be in continuous dialogue with conservatives and convince them as far as possible. Get that result, go ahead and let them think they had gotten some moderate ground, but then start working more on what you can get next. It's the more sinister route, but it can work as well. It's more slow, a lot less satisfying, but sometimes it might be the best route. Again, I'm hoping for a more definitive result in favor of gay marriage.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-07-12 at 10:13 PM.
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    We already have a perfectly acceptable word for what's being done and that word is "marriage". There is no point whatsoever in using a different word for what gays want to be able to do. We don't need any more "separate but equal" nonsense in this country.
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  5. #105
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    What I'm going to need explained to me in the slowest, most patient way possible, is what government having to do with marriage is a problem. Pretend I'm super stupid here. And if you don't have to pretend, all the better!
    Because government is the reason we have the issue with marriage that we have. Gov't is barring the union of gays, not the populus. Most polls show that the citizens of this country approve of SSM or at least don't believe that SSM should be barred, even if they don't agree with it. I fall in the latter category. If the gov't is out of the business of marriage and in the business of simply facilitating a fair deal in a case of divorce for a couple who voluntarily agreed to have contracts drawn up between themselves, I think that would be fair. The gov't would be doing what it's supposed to do and providing court services in the case of a contract dispute or custody dispute for children.
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    One of the common arugements I've seen from social conservatives is that the creation of a civil union should answer the questions regarding gay marriage.

    Typically, the general idea is this:

    • The civil union will contain the same benefits as a heterosexual marriage
    • The term 'marriage' will only be recognized as between one man and one woman


    So, dear reader, my question to you is: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise with regards to the issue of Same-Sex marriage?

    I'll try to have the answers as applicable as possible.
    No because separate but equal is a failed idea.

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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Marriage is societal and largely defined by the more mainstream beliefs within that society. Look at the diversity of marriage around the world, some places allow polygamy, others allow SSM and others only have hetero marriages. They also have different terms for divorce. Maybe entitled homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to tell the majority of individuals in a state that their moral views on marriage should be entertained and forced into law regardless of what the society they live in thinks or believes. You can look at it either way.
    The trouble is that religious people began looking to the government to lift up, encourage and validate their own institutions. This will ALWAYS come back to bite religious people. Don't look to the government to do these things for religion, and you won't have, in the end, religious words (like you believe marriage is) being co-opted by people who don't agree with your view of those words. The truth is this: 53% of the public agree with marriage equality. Now you have a majority of the public wanting this equality, what say you about the rule of the majority? You cannot stand in the way of this thing: A word you believed held religious significance, but was made part of an inclusive system, is now being wrenched out of the hands of some of the religious entirely. I say some of the religious because there are some religious people who believe gay people should be married to one another.

    It will happen every single time you give government authority over "religious" things: It will seem to go your way at first, but in the end it will not be to your liking. It will not be to your liking because it will eventually be the case that other religious people will disagree with you, or secular people will be in the majority, or there will be a coalition of people who disagree with you. This will ALWAYS happen.

    So the lesson in this matter is broader: Stop trying to make the government the tool of religion. Seek to ensure that government cannot be the tool of religion, so that everyone, you, the other sect, and the secular ALL have the liberty to live as they please. This applies to all sorts of things: Funding religious charities with taxpayer money, creating crosses and other religious displays on public land, putting "In God We Trust" on money. What if we now fought to say "In Gods We Trust", instead? It is, after all, true isn't it (at least with regard to ALL theists)?

    In the case of marriage, if it was ever indeed a religious institution, rather than merely a societal one, then it should never have been given structure and form and benefits by the government. A societal one should have always been in place instead, and marriages would have been the purview of religions entirely.

    But again, now that the religious have co-opted government power for their own use, and have legislatively institutionalized marriage, they are hoisted on their own petard in the matter, because decent people have won the day. The best you can do now is to get government "out of religion" by seeking to have marriages turned into civil unions, which is what you should have been doing in the first place. It is certainly what I wanted in the first place. Perhaps finally we can agree on this one thing. But, it may now be too late for this, because the die may be cast: Conservative Religion rolled the dice, and are on the losing side.
    Last edited by Dezaad; 12-07-12 at 10:57 PM.
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Because government is the reason we have the issue with marriage that we have. Gov't is barring the union of gays, not the populus. Most polls show that the citizens of this country approve of SSM or at least don't believe that SSM should be barred, even if they don't agree with it. I fall in the latter category. If the gov't is out of the business of marriage and in the business of simply facilitating a fair deal in a case of divorce for a couple who voluntarily agreed to have contracts drawn up between themselves, I think that would be fair. The gov't would be doing what it's supposed to do and providing court services in the case of a contract dispute or custody dispute for children.
    Please. We were all around 2004 when this came up. The public voted measures that added to their state constitutions language that bars gay marriage, including my state. This continued thereafter. The masses, under the command of demagogues, decided that homosexuals don't have the right to marry, because somehow this "threatens" the institution of marriage. Every campaign thereafter rested on "the people" deciding-not some "activist judge." The people, in their collective wisdom, thrust their uninformed mob rule onto civil rights.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-07-12 at 11:19 PM.
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    No.

    First it is a "separate but equal" policy that does nothing but distinguish between different types of couples not on their ability to fulfill what is required by the contract, but rather on their relative genders.

    Second, it is a waste of time and money. If the two things were completely the same contract, except by two separate names, then the government, i.e. the taxpayers, would have to spend the money and the time to copy the laws to indicate "civil union" vice marriage.

    Last, it would take more time to put into place, legally. Civil unions do not now offer the same benefits, rights, and/or protections of marriage, particularly on the federal level. So there would actually have to be an effort put in to set up civil unions, whereas marriage is already set up. The only effort needed to allow same sex couples to legally marry is to allow them to legally marry. Take out the relative gender restriction of all marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #110
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    re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by RepublicanMcDuc View Post
    No, because it's still the government relegating homosexual persons to second-class status. Whether you use the word marriage or union isn't as important as using the same word for both straight and gay couples.
    Thank you. SSM advocates have been primarily interested in claiming the word "marriage", or doing away with it all together, and I have believed so for a long time.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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