View Poll Results: How does this one end?

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  • A relatively minor deal will be struck in December

    21 53.85%
  • A major overhaul of our taxes and entitlements will occur

    2 5.13%
  • We will go over the cliff on Jan 1 and make a back-dated deal

    11 28.21%
  • We are in waterfall mode, ladies and gents. Grab your hardhats.

    5 12.82%
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Thread: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

  1. #61
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Oreilly? Cite the tax rate changes since 2009 in the EU that are responsible for the continued poor economic activity. Specifically in Greece, Spain, Portugal and France. show how these tax rate changes have far exceed the effects of massive cutbacks in govt spending by each nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sorry. Some of us have jobs.

    Spain's Income Tax Increases Take It To Top of Tax Table

    Europe's Failed Austerity

    ...In France, for example, the so-called austerity largely consisted of raising taxes. There was a 3 percent surtax on incomes above €500,000, an increase of one percentage point in the top marginal tax rate (from 40 to 41 percent), and an end to the automatic indexation of tax brackets for inheritance, wealth, and income taxes. There was also a 5 percent hike in the corporate income tax on businesses with revenue of more than €250 million, as well as a hike in the capital-gains tax, and closure of several corporate tax breaks. And even though most of these tax hikes were aimed at the wealthy, the middle class did not get off free. There was an increase in the Value Added Tax (VAT) and the excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol...

    Or take Britain, where the Tory-Liberal coalition recently suffered a drubbing in local elections, in part as a reaction to so-called austerity measures. Among the Cameron government’s first “austerity” measures was to hike the personal income tax to 50 percent for those earning more than £150,000 a year. That measure managed to actually decrease income-tax revenues by £509 million...

    Other European countries have taken the same approach: tax hikes today (especially) on the rich and promises of tiny benefit cuts in the dim and distant future. Spain imposed a “wealth tax” on citizens with €700,000 of assets, and a 7 percent income tax on those earning more than €300,000 per year; capital-gains taxes were also hiked. Italy imposed a “Solidarity Tax” of 3 percent on all taxpayers who earn more than €300,000. Greece increased taxes by nearly twice as much as it cut spending, including a 5 percent surtax on the wealthy. VATs were hiked nearly everywhere. And fuel, alcohol, and tobacco were also prime tax targets....


    You asked if they had raised taxes in Spain, Portugal, Greece, and France. The answer being: Yup.
    A citation of tiny marginal rate increases WITHOUT showing any macro impact......AND not comparing it to, for example, the 7.3% cut in govt spending in Spain alone?

    Apparently you glided over what I requested.

    Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  2. #62
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    A citation of tiny marginal rate increases WITHOUT showing any macro impact...
    On the contrary, these tax hikes did indeed have macro impact.

    AND not comparing it to, for example, the 7.3% cut in govt spending in Spain alone?
    I have stated that Europe attempted to both cut spending and raise taxes. It is not perfectly uniformly true (for example, Portugal tried to stimulate their economy through public spending, which left them off worse than when they had started), but it is the accurate description of what European Austerity generally has meant - they instituted same kind of "balanced approach" that the President seeks, and it proved itself a failure. Why is this hard for you to grasp?

  3. #63
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, these tax hikes did indeed have macro impact.
    Then show it, how many times do I have ask?



    I have stated that Europe attempted to both cut spending and raise taxes. It is not perfectly uniformly true (for example, Portugal tried to stimulate their economy through public spending, which left them off worse than when they had started),
    | Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:08am GMT
    (Reuters) - Portugal announced additional spending cuts and reforms on Friday to cut its deficit by an extra 0.8 percent of gross domestic product this year in an attempt to stave off intense pressure to take a bailout.

    Finance Minister Fernando Teixeira dos Santos spelled out a raft of measures including spending cuts on health services, social welfare and delaying infrastructure projects, which he said would guarantee the government will reach its target of a 4.6 percent fiscal gap this year.

    but it is the accurate description of what European Austerity generally has meant - they instituted same kind of "balanced approach" that the President seeks, and it proved itself a failure. Why is this hard for you to grasp?
    You are just not going to go beyond inaccurate rhetoric and show the macro impact of these small marginal tax rate increases compared to the impacts of spending cuts (double the percentage size of the marginal changes).

    And just to note, you are applying apples to oranges, the troubled states of the EU are suffering from a second recession, unemployment double ours, with these edicts coming from German banking.....and these states have given away their control of their currency.

    We on the other hand have not double dipped, have seen consistent declines in unemployment while the top 2% have seen massive increases in wealth.....which is directly who the Obama administration wants to allow the tax breaks to expire upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  4. #64
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Then show it, how many times do I have ask?
    That Europe has suffered under the President's "balanced approach"? You really need this demonstrated?

    | Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:08am GMT
    (Reuters) - Portugal announced additional spending cuts and reforms on Friday to cut its deficit by an extra 0.8 percent of gross domestic product this year in an attempt to stave off intense pressure to take a bailout.
    yup.

    They got there because:

    17 Dec 2008 Portugese Prime Minister Announces Stimulus Package

  5. #65
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That Europe has suffered under the President's "balanced approach"? You really need this demonstrated?
    Lets see, that comes ought to 3 swings at the same question....you are out.



    Lets review....they suffered from the same worldwide economic downturn as the US and the EU did......and their stimulus happened after the crash, but somehow the stimulus has caused a worse outcome? We call this "causation without correlation". I asked multiple times for you to show the direct connection between these events, nothing from you....just the usual citation of events.

    Again, you can't show the connections AND you still haven't acknowledge the basic difference between the EU and the US. So I'll try once again to enlighten you....the Euro states have a greater amount of govt spending as a % of GDP, so cuts in govt spending have a much greater effect than marginal tax rate changes on their economy. And closer to home, I'll point you to the Congressional Research Service Report On Tax Cuts For Wealthy, which showed among other things that the marginal rate has no correlation to economic activity. Again, if you believe the story is different for the EU states...then show it, but you won't, you avoid doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  6. #66
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    They will find some way to put a band aid on a broken leg. Soon the leg will develop staph infection and the rest of the body will die and they continue to use band aids instead of actual solutions.
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  7. #67
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    I see your CRS report (which has it's own issues) and raise you 30 years of economic history of industrialized nations

    ...The deficit debate is often misleading, however, because it tends to ignore a huge difference between the two kinds of deficit reduction. The evidence speaks loud and clear: when governments reduce deficits by raising taxes, they are indeed likely to witness deep, prolonged recessions. But when governments attack deficits by cutting spending, the results are very different.

    In 2011, the International Monetary Fund identified episodes from 1980 to 2005 in which 17 developed countries had aggressively reduced deficits. The IMF classified each episode as either “expenditure-based” or “tax-based,” depending on whether the government had mainly cut spending or hiked taxes. When Carlo Favero, Francesco Giavazzi, and I studied the results, it turned out that the two kinds of deficit reduction had starkly different effects: cutting spending resulted in very small, short-lived—if any—recessions, and raising taxes resulted in prolonged recessions...

    deficit reductions that successfully lower debt-to-GDP ratios without sparking recessions are those that combine spending reductions with such measures as deregulation, the liberalization of labor markets (including, in some cases, explicit agreement with unions for more moderate wages), and tax reforms that increase labor participation.

    Let’s be clear: this body of evidence doesn’t mean that cutting government spending always leads to economic booms. Rather, it shows that spending cuts are much less costly for the economy than tax hikes and that a carefully designed deficit-reduction plan, based on spending cuts and pro-growth policies, may completely eliminate the output loss that you’d expect from such cuts. Tax-based deficit reduction, by contrast, is always recessionary...
    Europe tried the Presidents' "Balanced Approach". It failed there, it won't do well here.

  8. #68
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    Re: Will we go over the Fiscal Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I see your CRS report (which has it's own issues) and raise you 30 years of economic history of industrialized nations



    Europe tried the Presidents' "Balanced Approach". It failed there, it won't do well here.
    Or, like France, they've gone whole hog on the rich...and they are enjoying the consequences...the exodus of the wealthy.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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