View Poll Results: Is it racist to ask immigrants to speak English?

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Thread: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

  1. #361
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well then what exactly is your point and what are you arguing about?
    That them not knowing English doesn't affect you (it was the general you at the time) in any meaningful way.

    It certainly affects them. It's their choice to be affected by it or not. The incentive for learning English is already built-in by virtue of the difficulties not learning English present. People can get by, and as such they do not need to learn English, but they'd certainly get by better and easier if they learn it. They're choice.

    People don't need to pretend it affects them when someone doesn't learn English. They only d this in order to justify the exceptionally stupid stance of making it a qualification for immigration, which is what the stance of "making immigrants learn English" is. (Ironically, making legal immigration even more difficult than it is already is the single dumbest position anyone who opposes illegal immigration can take because the only result such a policy can achieve is an increase in illegal immigration. It will never do what it sets out to do because of that.)

    Now, I would certainly never make the absurdly stupid argument that immigrant children shouldn't be taught English in school (which is the only possible argument I can really imagine that the evidence that you presented would refute).

    To expand further, I am 100% in favor of naturalization having an English language requirement.

    I just oppose phenomenally stupid ideas based on ignorance of the immigration process that would certainly cost so much money and resources to implement that they'd never really be effective so what people are really doing here is impotently pissing and moaning over the fact that they have to press one for English, which wouldn't have any chance of changing even if the requirement to learn English was in place because that's primarily a choice made by private businesses in order to make more money off of a specific demographic of people who are understandably far more comfortable speaking about important things, but especially financial matters, in their native language. They will choose to bring their business to the one that caters to them in this fashion, even if they do speak English fairly well. So that is never going to change. Businesses have figured out that it is a profitable idea. Learning Spanish will be a job requirement for a lot of jobs for the rest of the US's existence. People need to now learn the concept of personal responsibility. Choose to learn it and make yourself more valuable to the work force, or choose not to and limit your options.
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    [QUOTE=Tucker Case;1061252510]
    That them not knowing English doesn't affect you (it was the general you at the time) in any meaningful way.
    It most certainly does. If it affects society, then it affects me.

    It certainly affects them. It's their choice to be affected by it or not. The incentive for learning English is already built-in by virtue of the difficulties not learning English present. People can get by, and as such they do not need to learn English, but they'd certainly get by better and easier if they learn it. They're choice.
    No, it is not always their choice. There are certain occupations where not being able to communicate effectively can be dangerous and lead to death and/or injury. And you admit that it would only HELP immigrants, and it would also HELP us, so therefore it only makes sense to require that immigrants learn at least a limited amount of English, if only for a head start.

    People don't need to pretend it affects them when someone doesn't learn English. They only d this in order to justify the exceptionally stupid stance of making it a qualification for immigration, which is what the stance of "making immigrants learn English" is. (Ironically, making legal immigration even more difficult than it is already is the single dumbest position anyone who opposes illegal immigration can take because the only result such a policy can achieve is an increase in illegal immigration. It will never do what it sets out to do because of that.)
    Poverty affects everyone. Immigrants who cannot speak English are usually impoverished. That is a fact.

    Now, I would certainly never make the absurdly stupid argument that immigrant children shouldn't be taught English in school (which is the only possible argument I can really imagine that the evidence that you presented would refute).
    Thank God for that.

    To expand further, I am 100% in favor of naturalization having an English language requirement.
    Me too.

    I just oppose phenomenally stupid ideas based on ignorance of the immigration process that would certainly cost so much money and resources to implement that they'd never really be effective so what people are really doing here is impotently pissing and moaning over the fact that they have to press one for English, which wouldn't have any chance of changing even if the requirement to learn English was in place because that's primarily a choice made by private businesses in order to make more money off of a specific demographic of people who are understandably far more comfortable speaking about important things, but especially financial matters, in their native language. They will choose to bring their business to the one that caters to them in this fashion, even if they do speak English fairly well. So that is never going to change. Businesses have figured out that it is a profitable idea. Learning Spanish will be a job requirement for a lot of jobs for the rest of the US's existence. People need to now learn the concept of personal responsibility. Choose to learn it and make yourself more valuable to the work force, or choose not to and limit your options.
    Perhaps these things are stupid to you, but in reality things like this cost Americans MORE money. Where does it end? How many languages should WE have to learn so that we can make our immigrant friends comfortable? Whether you want to admit it or not, it is a problem. Maybe not a HUGE problem, but a problem nevertheless, not only for immigrants but for American citizens as we have to pay to support those who live in poverty.

    We want as few people on the system as possible, making English a requirement for immigrants would only HELP the situation. It would NOT hurt the situation, so other than saying you want to make things easier for immigrants to become a legal citizen at their own detriment and ours, I don't know what your argument is.

  3. #363
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I think it's a perfectly reasonable expectation that all people seeking citizenship be required to learn English, but immigrants might be temporary and might not need to ever learn the language, plus learning English in an English speaking has a built in incentive for those who need it to get by, thus there is no reason to make it a requirement for immigration.
    I agree to an extent. However, the great majority of laws and signs, and other such conveyances of law are written in english. Many of our police are bi-lingual but that's only in areas highly concentrated with an hispanic population. Why don't you think it useful that anyone in the US not be reguired to have at least a basic working knowledge of English enough to at least understand an Officers command, or be able to comprehend a yield or no turn on red sign?

  4. #364
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It most certainly does. If it affects society, then it affects me.
    It affects society in a positive manner. It provides an underbelly of society which can be exploited by the rich. Without that underbelly, capitalism fails.

    Pretending that something affects you in a meaningful way doesn't mean it actually affects you. Teh first step to understanding the difference between reality and fantasy is rejecting the pleasent fantasies we create for ourselves.


    No, it is not always their choice.
    True in rare instances, and in cases where someone has some sort of disability which prevents them from learning English, I certainly support assisting them. In fact, I've helped people who were having difficulties learning English before.

    There are certain occupations where not being able to communicate effectively can be dangerous and lead to death and/or injury.
    Which is why a lot jobs have a "must be bilingual" requirement, since the people doing the dangerous, dirty work tend to speak a language other than English. They can communicate effectively with each other great. It'd be the incompetent boss who failed to communicate effectively if they don't know Spanish (or whatever language his crew primarily spoke).

    And you admit that it would only HELP immigrants, and it would also HELP us, so therefore it only makes sense to require that immigrants learn at least a limited amount of English, if only for a head start.
    Learning English = beneficial to immigrants.

    A stupid ineffective requirement to learn English = detrimental to society.

    The first step to understanding here is to realize the fairly obvious fact that there are two different things present in those statements. You seem to be ignoring the fact that those are different statements.

    Starting a sentence with "it only makes sense" is a pointless exercise in mental masturbation if you are not acknowledging that there are two very very different things being discussed here.



    Poverty affects everyone.
    What a phenomenal example of the fallacious use of a thought-terminating cliche! It is called such because, in order to utter it, you must first terminate all thought.

    Poverty is a requirement of the capitalist system, and that's a fact. Without it, or the threat of it, we have no garbage men. The working poor are what we build our empire upon. It affects everyone, sure, but it only affects the impoverished in a uniformly detrimental fashion. Everyone else benefits from poverty. The degree to which we benefit is directly proportional to our overall net worth, too. The richer people are, the more they benefit from poverty.

    This is not a moral argument against capitalism, either. I pass no judgements in any direction. It simply a statement of reality. It's why communism fails.

    Immigrants who cannot speak English are usually impoverished. That is a fact.
    So? most of the immigrants who cannot speak English are choosing not to speak English.


    Thank God for that.
    Pity you didn't realize it before you created the strawman.



    Me too.
    And it does, so yay!



    Perhaps these things are stupid to you
    No, they are stupid objectively. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Fact: if you do something that can't possibly achieve the desired goal, and actually increases the thing you wish to decrease, you are doing something stupid.

    For example, if I want to decrease the amount of fecal material that ends up on the floor in my living room and my method of prevention is to place a guard dog that is not house-broken in my living room to prevent random strangers from taking a **** in it, I have engaged in a very stupid approach to decreasing said fecal material, and indeed, there will probably be a significant increase in fecal material present in my living room from that point forward.

    This is essentially what the proposed requirement does. It will only have the effect of preventing people from coming here legally. It will NOT prevent people who do not speak English from coming here, it will only make sure that the one's who do come here do so illegally. In other words, the total number of non-English speaking immigrants remains constant, but the total number of illegal immigrants increases.

    It's kind of like how banning assault weapons is a stupid way to prevent people from going on killing sprees. It's the exact same principles at play.





    but in reality things like this cost Americans MORE money.
    False. Simply stating a false thing doesn't make it true. It does not cost us more money when someone doesn't know English than it would cost to make sure that every Immigrant knows English at a level that you and your compatriots find acceptable. NOr does it cost more than having a significant increase in illegal immigration due to even more utterly counter-productive choices to make legal immigration more difficult



    Where does it end?
    Slippery slope fallacy. Excellent way to avoid making a real argument.

    How many languages should WE have to learn so that we can make our immigrant friends comfortable?

    You have to learn nothing. Stop pretending to be victimized here. Nobody forces you to do anything. You can adapt, or you can not adapt. It's your choice.



    Whether you want to admit it or not, it is a problem.
    Only to those who wish to pretend to be victimized by reality and like to defecate on the concept of personal responsibility .

    Maybe not a HUGE problem, but a problem nevertheless, not only for immigrants but for American citizens as we have to pay to support those who live in poverty.

    The people who really pay for those in poverty are corporations and wealthy people, and these people rely the most heavily upon those in poverty in order to maintain their lifestyles.

    So in essence, it's really a case of the poor paying it forward without ever really having all that much of the money involved in their own possession along the way. Think about it in a complete, systemic way and you'll see how it all works. The labors of the poor, especially the working poor, create greater profits and benefits for the non-poor than they do for the poor.

    ...making English a requirement for immigrants would only HELP the situation.
    Why do you make that unfounded, illogical assumption? Are you operating under the totally unsupportable premise that such a pointless program has any chance of being effective?!?!?! If so, where on Earth did you get that silly notion from?

    It would NOT hurt the situation
    False. It would increases costs, doesn't have an effect, and

    so other than saying you want to make things easier for immigrants to become a legal citizen at their own detriment and ours
    I was very clear I support an English requirement for Naturalization. Please, please, tell me you are not so abysmally ignorant of this topic that you think residency and Citizenship are even remotely close to being the same thing.

    I don't know what your argument is.
    Let's start by determining your knowledge of the word Citizenship vs. Residency. You cleary seem to be confusing the two things, which is truly pathetic and indicates you are not competent in understanding my argument, since this rudimentary understanding is necessary to approach this subject intelligently.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  5. #365
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I agree to an extent. However, the great majority of laws and signs, and other such conveyances of law are written in english. Many of our police are bi-lingual but that's only in areas highly concentrated with an hispanic population. Why don't you think it useful that anyone in the US not be reguired to have at least a basic working knowledge of English enough to at least understand an Officers command, or be able to comprehend a yield or no turn on red sign?
    One does not really need to have any real knowledge of English to understand an officer's command (the tone of voice is usually enough to convey the message quite clearly) or comprehend a Yield or No Turn on Red sign (Traffic signs are both color coded and shape-based, this is to assist Natural Born citizens who are illiterate more than it is to assist non-English speakers, but the effect is basically the same). In Illinois, the test for knowing what traffic sign means what does not include a single word on the signs, and is entirely shape and color based. Even though I am actually color-blind, I was able to get a perfect score just last summer when I had to retake the test to renew my license. Imagine how easier it must be for someone with normal color vision, regardless of what language they speak?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #366
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It affects society in a positive manner. It provides an underbelly of society which can be exploited by the rich. Without that underbelly, capitalism fails.

    Pretending that something affects you in a meaningful way doesn't mean it actually affects you. Teh first step to understanding the difference between reality and fantasy is rejecting the pleasent fantasies we create for ourselves.




    True in rare instances, and in cases where someone has some sort of disability which prevents them from learning English, I certainly support assisting them. In fact, I've helped people who were having difficulties learning English before.



    Which is why a lot jobs have a "must be bilingual" requirement, since the people doing the dangerous, dirty work tend to speak a language other than English. They can communicate effectively with each other great. It'd be the incompetent boss who failed to communicate effectively if they don't know Spanish (or whatever language his crew primarily spoke).



    Learning English = beneficial to immigrants.

    A stupid ineffective requirement to learn English = detrimental to society.

    The first step to understanding here is to realize the fairly obvious fact that there are two different things present in those statements. You seem to be ignoring the fact that those are different statements.

    Starting a sentence with "it only makes sense" is a pointless exercise in mental masturbation if you are not acknowledging that there are two very very different things being discussed here.





    What a phenomenal example of the fallacious use of a thought-terminating cliche! It is called such because, in order to utter it, you must first terminate all thought.

    Poverty is a requirement of the capitalist system, and that's a fact. Without it, or the threat of it, we have no garbage men. The working poor are what we build our empire upon. It affects everyone, sure, but it only affects the impoverished in a uniformly detrimental fashion. Everyone else benefits from poverty. The degree to which we benefit is directly proportional to our overall net worth, too. The richer people are, the more they benefit from poverty.

    This is not a moral argument against capitalism, either. I pass no judgements in any direction. It simply a statement of reality. It's why communism fails.



    So? most of the immigrants who cannot speak English are choosing not to speak English.




    Pity you didn't realize it before you created the strawman.





    And it does, so yay!





    No, they are stupid objectively. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Fact: if you do something that can't possibly achieve the desired goal, and actually increases the thing you wish to decrease, you are doing something stupid.

    For example, if I want to decrease the amount of fecal material that ends up on the floor in my living room and my method of prevention is to place a guard dog that is not house-broken in my living room to prevent random strangers from taking a **** in it, I have engaged in a very stupid approach to decreasing said fecal material, and indeed, there will probably be a significant increase in fecal material present in my living room from that point forward.

    This is essentially what the proposed requirement does. It will only have the effect of preventing people from coming here legally. It will NOT prevent people who do not speak English from coming here, it will only make sure that the one's who do come here do so illegally. In other words, the total number of non-English speaking immigrants remains constant, but the total number of illegal immigrants increases.

    It's kind of like how banning assault weapons is a stupid way to prevent people from going on killing sprees. It's the exact same principles at play.







    False. Simply stating a false thing doesn't make it true. It does not cost us more money when someone doesn't know English than it would cost to make sure that every Immigrant knows English at a level that you and your compatriots find acceptable. NOr does it cost more than having a significant increase in illegal immigration due to even more utterly counter-productive choices to make legal immigration more difficult





    Slippery slope fallacy. Excellent way to avoid making a real argument.




    You have to learn nothing. Stop pretending to be victimized here. Nobody forces you to do anything. You can adapt, or you can not adapt. It's your choice.





    Only to those who wish to pretend to be victimized by reality and like to defecate on the concept of personal responsibility .




    The people who really pay for those in poverty are corporations and wealthy people, and these people rely the most heavily upon those in poverty in order to maintain their lifestyles.

    So in essence, it's really a case of the poor paying it forward without ever really having all that much of the money involved in their own possession along the way. Think about it in a complete, systemic way and you'll see how it all works. The labors of the poor, especially the working poor, create greater profits and benefits for the non-poor than they do for the poor.



    Why do you make that unfounded, illogical assumption? Are you operating under the totally unsupportable premise that such a pointless program has any chance of being effective?!?!?! If so, where on Earth did you get that silly notion from?



    False. It would increases costs, doesn't have an effect, and



    I was very clear I support an English requirement for Naturalization. Please, please, tell me you are not so abysmally ignorant of this topic that you think residency and Citizenship are even remotely close to being the same thing.



    Let's start by determining your knowledge of the word Citizenship vs. Residency. You cleary seem to be confusing the two things, which is truly pathetic and indicates you are not competent in understanding my argument, since this rudimentary understanding is necessary to approach this subject intelligently.
    Just what is it you are getting at here? That we need to import poverty? Good God! That's ridiculous! We have enough of our own citizens who live in poverty. There will ALWAYS be poverty no matter what you do, so there is no need to import more of it.

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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    no, it's racist to ask for birthright Americans to speak Spanish because the immigrants don't care enough about us to learn our language.

  8. #368
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    I don't think it is racist to ask for immigrants to speak the official language.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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  9. #369
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyPaladin View Post
    I hear people talking about this subject all the time, and I'm just curious.

    Is it racist to ask immigrants to speak English (or whatever language the country they immigrated to speaks) when in public places?
    No.

    When I was traveling, I never went anywhere without learning at least the "getting around" basics in their dominant language. I would have been totally embarrassed with myself if I had just shown up in their country, and tried to make them speak my language.

    It's just basic decency. You are in someone else's country, and they don't have to adjust to you. Why should they? It's THEIR home.

    If I felt that way about places I was just traveling through, I don't know why I wouldn't feel that way about someplace I was actually moving to.

    It is not "racist." I don't feel that way any less about a Swede than I would for a Mexican.

    I would never go to your home and demand that you do things my way. I don't appreciate someone doing that to me.

    That said, you can speak whatever language you want to whomever understands you. And I appreciate the simple effort -- if you're rough as hell, that's ok. Practice makes perfect.

    But people who want to live in America should know English. In most places, it's pretty damn tough to get by without it. And it's also just pretty rude.

    I don't request anything of immigrants that I wouldn't demand of myself.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 03-10-13 at 07:21 AM.

  10. #370
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    What do you call a person who speaks two languages? Answer: Bi-Lingual. What do you call a person who speaks only one language? (wait for it ) . American

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