View Poll Results: Is it racist to ask immigrants to speak English?

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  • Yes

    12 8.28%
  • No

    112 77.24%
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    21 14.48%
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Thread: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

  1. #331
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Reap the benefits but never give anything back!?!?

    Let me tell you about my wife's grandmother. A middle-aged Sicilian woman of the old school who came here with her husband and children in the 60's because her husband needed work to feed that family, only to have her husband get killed by a drunk driver less than a year later when he was riding his bicycle home from his factory job, thus leaving their 19 year old son (who only has a grade school education) as the family's main breadwinner. Back in Sicily, she was not given an education of outside of "traditional female household tasks" because women didn't get educations in those days.

    Her American dream was destroyed by the careless act of a man who never even spent one day in jail for his crimes because he had political connections in Chicago. But she stayed here, not for herself, but for her children's sake. For her future grandchildren. She didn't learn English. Instead, she turned toward people from her own culture who could help her out. Her oldest son, my father-in law, became the patriarch of the family, helping to put his two younger brothers (who were only in grade school at this time) through college.

    Now fast forward 40 or so years. The 19-year old with only a grade school education just retired this year after putting in 40+ years as an electrician, and being given a huge retirement bonus from his company because, as they put it, "You made us a lot of money over the years. We hate to see you go."

    His younger brothers went on to become a vice president at a major bank and a very successful broker, both of whom easily qualify as being "1 percenters". They probably pay more in taxes than 50 average Americans combined.

    Yet here she is, an elderly immigrant who barely speaks English even after 40+ years in this country. I guess because she never really assimilated herself, she didn't give back, though, right?
    You don't have to, this is not about your wifes grandmother. I clarified I was not speaking in general terms. So I really don't care about what she did or did not do, it has nothing at all to do with her. Stop taking it personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You grew up in Chicago outside of the immigrant culture. Whereas I grew up in Chicago inside of the immigrant culture. I know the stories of why these immigrants came here. I know the stories of what they have dealt with while they were here. I know their struggles, I know their woes. I know what they came here with (rarely more than a work ethic and some hope), and more importantly, what they didn't come here with (Things that we often take for granted, like a 9th grade education).

    These aren't retirees who come here with money and resources. They are people who have to struggle for everything they get in life. They usually don't do it for themselves. Instead they do it for their families, either back home or here or even the ones they hope to one day have. My father used to say to me, "I could have stayed back home and went on the dole like other people did, but where would that have left ye?"

    He didn't have to come here, of course. He made a choice. But it's not an easy choice, nor is it an easy road. It requires hard work and determination. They have to leave their family behind without knowing when or if they will ever see them, or in some cases like my father's, speak to them, again (my father's money that he sent back paid for his parents' first phone). They often start off with nothing, literally nothing, because all of the money they had was spent getting here in the first place.

    My father came out here utterly alone and broke. If it wasn't for the Irish community, he'd have certainly failed, because no Americans were willing to hire this uneducated Mick who could sheer a sheep in no time, but didn't have much in the way of non-farm skills. He had a keen mind, a hell of a work ethic, and a very strong back, though. So, through the Irish community, he got connected with some Italians who were working in the concrete business and pretty much needed a mule to haul the concrete forms around 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. He was lucky he was Irish, cause he definitely didn't have time to learn English. He did pick up some Italian during that time on the job, though. And he also learned the concrete trade (which was far more important than learning English at that point).

    In his spare time he went out with some of the other Irish guys he knew on side jobs as often as he could, learning plumbing, carpentry, masonry... useful things that would get him more work.

    Like I said, he's lucky he was Irish. If he was from a country that didn't speak English, he'd have had an even tougher time than he did.
    Boo hoo. My grandfather and his brother were French and had nothing but a boat ticket. They landed in the US back in the early 1900's. They both married black women, so don't you can't tell me **** about what I do or do not know. They did however learn English even though they did not have to as allot of people spoke creole or French in Louisiana.

    Don't assume ****. This is not about your grandmother. So again, who is playing the victim here?

    None of that entire diatribe does anything at all to negate anything I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Our government does not bend over backwards to help immigrants of any stripe. I'm not sure where this myth came from, but ask any immigrant whether or not the US government has been helpful to them and I'd be shocked if anyone but the political refugees says yes.
    That is the biggest load. Please post some evidence to prove this? I have proof to support mine...

    The USA remains one of the most popular countries in the world as an immigration destination. Let us help you on the road to getting your USA visa.

    The US has over 60 types of non-immigrant (meaning non-permanent) US visas. workpermit.com offers you full US immigration services if you need help, as well as many USA visa guides to get you started if you want to handle your US immigration on your own. The US immigration process can be confusing and bureaucratic, but our experts are here to help.
    - US immigration

    Over the past two years, as U.S. unemployment remained near double-digit levels and the economy shed jobs in the wake of the financial crisis, over a million foreign-born arrivals to America found work, many illegally. - Exclusive: Over a million immigrants land U.S. jobs in 2008-10 | Reuters



    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That's the problem. People seem to think they do something for these immigrants, when we in truth we show them no respect and expect them to suck our balls in return for allowing them to sully our lives with their very presence. We put forth no effort to understand their situation, we simply assume that we've made it great for them and that they owe us something. They don't owe us ****. We're a better country for them being here. They, and those like them who have come here throughout time, are why America became great in the first place.
    This is not the same country your grandmother or my grandfather etc came to. Times change and so do the situations we find ourselves in.

    Again this has nothing to do with your relatives and I was NOT speaking in general terms.

    This also has little to do with legal immigration. I am pointing out illegals as the biggest part of the problem. Most legals do make an effort to learn English.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  2. #332
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However, in your quest to get on your holier-than-thou immigratoin soap box you managed to completely overlook what my actual point was.
    Can't help it. It's my hack issue. We all have them.

    My apologies, though, for my misunderstanding.

    My issue is with those that feel like we must FORCE or COERCE society to accomodate those who make CHOICES...as you yourself noted it was...to not do things that will benefit themselves and society simply for the purpose of accomodation their self imposed limitation. AND, my far bigger issue, are those who seek to attack, degrade, and berate people as their method of ushering in such a change.
    Then we are in agreement. There's nothing wrong with not accommodating people, but there is definitely something wrong with the following things:

    1. Acting like one does something to accommodate them when they don't.
    2. Feigning victimhood over the accommodations that ARE made by others (such as pretending to be qualified for a job, when one of the requirements for the job is being bilingual. They aren't, as the job requirements clearly indicate).
    3. Attempting to prevent people from making such accommodations by choice
    4. Demonizing people for not having the skills that are being accommodated.
    5. Attempts to force immigrants to speak English (the incentive for speaking English exists already, forcing immigrants to speak it is simply bigotry)

    All of the above are things I treat with the disdain that they deserve. I do not do it to coerce people to usher in such "change". If I berate, degrade, or denigrate someone's views on this issue, it's because they have done something which appeared to demonstrate one of the above views and, as such, such a view deserves to be berated, attacked, or denigrated.

    Getting US citizenship already has an English requirement. I'd even be OK with getting rid of, or altering some of the exceptions to the requirement. That's a different issue than the issue of immigrants speaking English (although it is often muddled by those who are not aware of the actual laws in play here and really know nothing at all about immigration),which is what is being discussed here.

    I realize that the citizenship requirement is not what you were talking about, but I bring it up here to illustrate that I am not really an extremist on this issue by any stretch of the imagination. If someone wishes to actually become an American (i.e. become a citizen), then they should absolutely be expected to learn English as a requirement, with only a few rare exceptions (I disagree with the existing exception of being 50 and having lived here legally for 20 years, for example. The time living here should at least be lowered from 20 years to 10 years, IMO, or the age should be raised to 60).

    My issue is with the negative portrayal of immigrants that comes along with this discussion, and I'll be the first person to say that it is due to the fact that I have a strong emotional tie to immigration and many loved one's who are immigrants from many different countries. I will not now, nor will I ever, allow such portrayals to go unchallenged.

    If you want to personally put up pictures along with words on your menu because you feel for the immigrant community around you, more power to you. If you want to do it because it'll make you more money, fine. If you want to suggest someone else do it to help their business or help immigrants, no problem. If you want to make it into some kind of mandated regulation to run that kind of business, or if you want to decry the store owner as a racist or a bigot or a xenophobe, as your method of coercing them to your view through attacks THEN I have an issue with it.
    We're in full agreement then. I oppose such mandated regulations as well, nor do I consider any company that chooses not to make such accommodations as bigoted or racist for that choice. .
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  3. #333
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That "welfare" (means tested entitlements) is now costing the U.S. treasury nearly $1 trillion per year.
    I'm not sure why you think that is a rebuttal to my statement?
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  4. #334
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm not sure why you think that is a rebuttal to my statement?
    Because you seem to imply that welfare spending is such an insignificant part of what federal taxation supports, when it is nearly 1/4 of it. Or are you really upset that my meager income requires paying little in federal taxation, thus I should not be concerned?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #335
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyPaladin View Post
    I hear people talking about this subject all the time, and I'm just curious.

    Is it racist to ask immigrants to speak English (or whatever language the country they immigrated to speaks) when in public places?
    If by in public places you mean dealing with other people who don't speak their language, no, it's not racist at all. You have a responsibility as an immigrant to at least try to learn your host nation's language. I'm an immigrant to Germany myself, but I made sure (and so did the state) that I spoke German.

    It's not just a matter of culture, it's a matter of public safety. If a police officer tells you something, you need to be able to understand him.
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    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #336
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You don't have to, this is not about your wifes grandmother. I clarified I was not speaking in general terms. So I really don't care about what she did or did not do, it has nothing at all to do with her. Stop taking it personal.
    There's nothing personal about it. You made a completely false comment about the contributions these people make to society. That story is a personal, anecdotal way of demonstrating by example how patently false your statement was and how it is based not on fact, but gross generalization.



    Boo hoo. My grandfather and his brother were French and had nothing but a boat ticket. They landed in the US back in the early 1900's. They both married black women, so don't you can't tell me **** about what I do or do not know. They did however learn English even though they did not have to as allot of people spoke creole or French in Louisiana.
    Excellent. Good for them on learning English even though they didn't have to ( I put that in Italics to point out that this is not a new phenomenon). You do realize, however, that having a grandfather and grand-uncle who immigrated to Louisiana in the 1900's is a far cray from growing up inside of the immigrant community in Chicago?

    You've demonstrated that you did not grow up in the immigrant community in Chicago by your statements. That's not an assumption, it's a fact. One I'm sure you can admit to when you aren't being emotional about perceived slights against you caused by my noting of this fact. Your parents were not immigrants and only one of your grandparents was. If you think that gives you some great insight into what it means to be an immigrant, then disabuse yourself of that notion, because it doesn't That'd be like me saying that I had a black relative a few generations back and therefore I know what it is like to grow up in the black community or as a black man, despite the fact that I'm as white as snow.

    I'm sure you realize how absurd that is.

    Don't assume ****.
    I made no assumptions. You have demonstrated that you did not grow up in the immigrant community in Chicago.


    This is not about your grandmother.
    I never said it was. I'm demonstrating the flaws in your assumptions by virtue of providing examples.

    So again, who is playing the victim here?
    The person claiming that things that do not affect them negatively in any way affect them negatively in many ways. I did not do that in any way shape or form, so I guess that leaves you?

    None of that entire diatribe does anything at all to negate anything I said.
    It absolutely negates our claim of "The problem is some people come here and instead of wanting to be part of our society, they want to reap the befits give nothing back. Then they have the nerve to thumb there noses at our society and system."

    First, the reaping the benefits part is pretty absurd. It implies that one simply has to get here and magically their life is better. It takes hard work and sacrifice. It took hard work and sacrifice for my father, it took hard work and sacrifice for your grandfather and his brother. You denigrate their struggles by expressing such a cavalier attitude about what it takes to make it in the US. That's why I told the story of my father's efforts. Not to create a sob story, as you seem to have taken it, but to demonstrate that this is not a magical thing that happens over night.

    Next, the "give nothing back" comment is absurd. Even those who "suck from the government teat" so to say, contribute to our society in some way most of the time. It might simply be a matter of providing opportunity for their children to become valuable members of society, or their grandchildren, or their great grandchildren, but they do contribute in some meaningful way.




    That is the biggest load. Please post some evidence to prove this? I have proof to support mine...

    The USA remains one of the most popular countries in the world as an immigration destination. Let us help you on the road to getting your USA visa.

    The US has over 60 types of non-immigrant (meaning non-permanent) US visas. workpermit.com offers you full US immigration services if you need help, as well as many USA visa guides to get you started if you want to handle your US immigration on your own. The US immigration process can be confusing and bureaucratic, but our experts are here to help.
    - US immigration
    Are you under the bizarre impression that the benefits of immigration is a one-way street? The Us doesn't have to put forth any effort to get an immigrant (and they benefit form immigrants), whereas the immigrant has to put forth tremendous effort in order to succeed here. The government doesn't coax them along or anything.

    Of course, the important thing to note here is that the "evidence" you just put forth does NOTHING to support your claim of the "government bending over backwards to help illegals". I mean, how absurd is it to put up evidence of methods for becoming a legal immigrant to support a comment about the government helping illegal immigrants?

    If you want to support your claim with evidence, I suggest using evidence which actually supports the claim instead of totally unrelated evidence which does nothign to suppor tthe claim and is, indeeed, utterly unrelated to that claim in any discernible way.

    Over the past two years, as U.S. unemployment remained near double-digit levels and the economy shed jobs in the wake of the financial crisis, over a million foreign-born arrivals to America found work, many illegally. - Exclusive: Over a million immigrants land U.S. jobs in 2008-10 | Reuters
    Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the comment of "government bending over backwards to help illegals". The govenrment is not employing these people, private businesses are. Is your problem with the government bending over backwards, or is ti with companies hiring illegal immigrants? These are very different things.

    The government has been deporting illegals at a higher rate than the previous administration did, I believe, so your evidence does nothing to support your claim, nor does it even really relate to your claim.

    I'm getting confused here. Are you railing against the government bending over backwards to help illegal immigrants, or are you railing against illegal immigrants and companies that hire them in general and at random?

    [/QUOTE]

    Best line at 1:12 seconds: "But there is something that we do know with certainty about the illegal aliens living in this country. They work, for the most part, very hard, most of them. They have an affect on nearly every aspect of our society and our economy."

    There's always something that is forgotten about in the calculations of the costs of illegal immigration: Illegal immigration is benefiting somebody other than the illegal immigrants. Often much, much more than it benefits the illegal immigrants, to be perfectly honest, especially in the financial sense.

    US companies see increased profits from hiring illegal immigrants (and people like you and I often pay far less for certain goods and services because of it too). The increased profits that these companies see are, presumably, taxed. These taxes certainly offset some of the other costs associated with illegal immigrants. The lowered prices that we have for certain goods and services also defray the burden that these people place on society.

    Furthermore, illegal immigrants often pay into the tax system, especially the social security and medicare pools (which they will never have access to). These contributions are in the billions of dollars each year. This is something else that is often overlooked in the "costs" calculations.

    Not that this matters in any way, though, because the issue at hand is whether the government bends over backwards to help illegal immigrants (which is what your claim was, a claim you have STILL failed miserably to provide support for), not about the costs of illegal immigration. I only provide a counter argument because these are things which are often overlooked. It's actually why many people oppose amnesty so much: It would cost us a great deal more to legalize these immigrants rather than keep them illegal. I also like to point out that illegal immigration cannot possibly be a one-way street that benefits illegal immigrants. It's just impossible because, if it was a one-way street, it couldn't possibly exist. People do not hire illegal immigrants because they are being altruistic.

    Ironically, we benefit less from bending over backwards to prevent illegal immigration than we would to simply put forth less energy preventing it.


    This is not the same country your grandmother or my grandfather etc came to.
    My grandparents did not come here. My parents did. Well, my maternal grandparents came here for a few years when my mother was born, but but my mom was raised in Ireland, not the US.

    Anyway, it's pretty much the same country that they came to in the 70's, when the economy also sucked and people were looking to scapegoat immigrants. Not much has changed in all of these years.

    My wife's parents came here as well (her father was 18 when he came here along with the aforementioned grandmother, her mother was in her late 20's when she came).


    Times change and so do the situations we find ourselves in.
    Not that much, the only thing that has changed all that much is that people used to only need a boat ticket from France to be considered "legal" immigrants.

    Again this has nothing to do with your relatives and I was NOT speaking in general terms.
    Parents. When you say relatives, you make it seem like I am a multigenerational American like yourself, rather than the bi-cultural child of immigrants.

    There's a big difference with regard to understanding the struggles and sacrifices of immigrants when you've witnessed your parents going through it, rather than having heard stories about your relative going through it.

    This also has little to do with legal immigration.
    My father was an illegal immigrant when he came here, and he spoke English, whereas my wife's grandmother came here legally and didn't.

    I'm not sure why you think this issue has anything to do with illegal immigration versus legal immigration. It has more to do with some combination of age at immigration, level of education, language acquisition skill, whether or not you come from an English speaking country, and the size of the immigrant community form the culture you come from or that speaks the language of the country you come form than anything else.

    Why do we see so many Polish people in Chicago who never learn to speak English well? Because there is a massive Polish community in Chicago which allows that to be possible. It has nothing to do with their legal status.

    The biggest reason this issue is becoming such a big deal is not because it is something new, it is because it has spread outside of the urban environment, where everyone is already used to it because it's been that way here, and in New York, and in San Francisco, etc. for longer than anyone alive can remember.

    I am pointing out illegals as the biggest part of the problem.
    And I'm pointing out that your assumptions are not accurate.

    Most legals do make an effort to learn English.
    Most illegals do, too. It has nothing to do with legal status, really.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  7. #337
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Because you seem to imply that welfare spending is such an insignificant part of what federal taxation supports, when it is nearly 1/4 of it.
    No, I was pretty clear that I was talking about YOUR contributions to welfare. It's why I worded my statement like this:

    "your tax burden does almost nothing to help anyone on welfare. You don't need to feel victimized anymore. You've probably lost more money in the dryer than you have lost on taxes going toward welfare."

    Notice the distinct lack of any statements about the federal government or anything of that nature?

    Or are you really upset that my meager income requires paying little in federal taxation, thus I should not be concerned?
    Upset? Where did you get the absurd notion that I am upset? You're clearly the person who is upset about the mythical amount of money you imagine that you have to spend. that's why you had the misconception that YOU have some obligation to support someone else's "lazy ass", no?

    I was simply pointing out that you don't have to be so upset about this imaginary obligation because of it's status as an imaginary thing.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  8. #338
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    more useless stuff Tucker posted
    Well as soon as you post something other than lip service and lines like "The government has been deporting illegals at a higher rate than the previous administration did, I believe, so your evidence does nothing to support your claim, nor does it even really relate to your claim." You are correct the rate of deportation has nothing to do with supporting my claim. Nice strawman. I mean as soon as you post some hard evidence supporting your position like i did, we may have something here. Other wise you can take your hyperbole filled rant someplace else.

    Because the Irish had it so rough compered to people like me, blacks who grew up in the 60's and 70's. I am sorry the Irish in the 20's and 30's maybe, but the 70's???? I weep for the white immigrants.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 12-13-12 at 06:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  9. #339
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoopyPaladin View Post
    I hear people talking about this subject all the time, and I'm just curious.

    Is it racist to ask immigrants to speak English (or whatever language the country they immigrated to speaks) when in public places?
    How would asking a Russian immigrant to America to speak English be racist?

  10. #340
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    Re: Is it racist to ask for immigrants to speak English?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    How would asking a Russian immigrant to America to speak English be racist?
    I corrected this in a post somewhere in this thread... the word I should have used is "bigoted".
    I don't solve problems, I create them.

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