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Christmas Tree vs Holiday Tree

Which one is it?

  • Total voters
    114
  • Poll closed .
Klown said:
that is only partially true

but you're starting to look inwards a little bit mr Ecofarm - and in an honest way

the cathartic revelations must be awe inspiring for you on a personal level

keep up the great work in here

You know that we are all proud of all that hard work and supreme reflection that you constantly carry out

cheers
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Hey, nice Klown ain't so bad. I think I'll agree with him more often.
 
Fisher said:
I've always heard June LOL
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Well, it ain't December. It's fricken cold in that part of the Middle East. And Shepard would have put their sheep into some kind of covered building rather then let them pasture at night out in that cold. Keeping your sheep out in the middle of the night and staying with them is far more of a summer thing than winter. Jesus was not born in December.
 
Dooble said:
I don't run from anyone, obvious Child; especially children. You got all the response you need.
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Actually you run from a lot of people here. And your response was that you are ignorant and arrogant insulting people who clearly know more than you do and then lacking the maturity to own up to the fact you screwed up.

I'm going to keep referencing this incident as why you are a bad poster.

Now find a special place to grow up, and think about how you can most effectively make comments in the future.
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How about you man up and admit you got it wrong?

FYI: You are once again cowardly fleeing from post #133 where you openly insulted me and then fled from my rebuttal
 
obvious Child said:
Well, it ain't December. It's fricken cold in that part of the Middle East. And Shepard would have put their sheep into some kind of covered building rather then let them pasture at night out in that cold. Keeping your sheep out in the middle of the night and staying with them is far more of a summer thing than winter. Jesus was not born in December.
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I think the guess I hear is based upon the alignment of something or the other that would have created the illusion of a brighter than normal star and they calculate off the lunar cycles.
 
Fisher said:
I think the guess I hear is based upon the alignment of something or the other that would have created the illusion of a brighter than normal star and they calculate off the lunar cycles.
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Nah, the Catholic Church adopted December 25 to reel more pagans into Christianity. Remember that there were a fair number of large Pagan festivals around that time. The April-July time frame makes far more sense in the context of the weather. I've been around Israel and Jordan in December to January. You do not want to be outside after 8ish. Nor do you want your livestock outside either.
 
ecofarm said:
Hey, nice Klown ain't so bad. I think I'll agree with him more often.
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never fear ecofarm

that brave soaring eagle will one emerge from the current mess and liberate the USA from its current corpocratic chains.

your flag will fly again in the breeze of change

you will be respected again in the world as a leading light of hope

At the moment the train is heading in the opposite direction and towards the cliff of Hades

you know what needs to be done
 
obvious Child said:
The US is largely a representative plutocracy.
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and a Plutocracy is an Oligarchy - an non-democratic system.

The instruments of this Plutocratic Oligarchy are predominantly Corporations and private centralised and global banks

You use the word "representative" but we all know what and who the Plutocracy or Oligarchy represents don't we?

And its not the American citizenry
 
obvious Child said:
How about you man up and admit you got it wrong?
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I didn't get anything wrong. You stupidly suggested that Christmas has nothing or little to with Jesus Christ, and I guided you to the point of your ignorance.

There's so much bull**** riding your points that it's hard to know where to begin.

Take the moronic statement you made in #133 about you claiming to not be an atheist. You and I both know that's total horse ****, and yet you went ahead and made that claim, anyways. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you make such idiotic statements? The only way you can expect that is if you are developmentally delayed, or you're just a bald face liar. Personally, I think it's a combination of both, but that's just my work experience speaking. The one tiny ray of truth in what you said is that you didn't deny that you're also an anti-Christ. That was telling, and I appreciate your honesty however accidental it may have been.

No, there's plenty wrong with you, obvious Child, and I could go on all day if you really want me to, but that's entirely up to you.

In the meantime, I'll keep treating your comments as I always have: like they hardly even exist. ;)
 
I thought this thread was about Christmas trees? :lol:

I want to know why anyone would object to calling it a "Christmas" tree. Is it because the word "Christ" is in it? Is it because people are offended by the Christmas holiday? I would like someone to give me a clear reason why they object to Christmas trees.
 
Klown said:
and a Plutocracy is an Oligarchy - an non-democratic system.
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Not quite. Democracy is merely the process of electing people. The fact that we elect on the whole, virtually only rich people means we have a representative plutocracy. We get a slate of rich people we get to vote for. Traditional Oligarchies don't have a democratic function in how they get power.

You use the word "representative" but we all know what and who the Plutocracy or Oligarchy represents don't we?

And its not the American citizenry
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Not true. They represent their voters may be 10% of the time.
 
Dooble said:
I didn't get anything wrong.
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Actually you did.

You stupidly suggested that Christmas has nothing or little to with Jesus Christ
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And now you're a liar.

obvious Child said:
Christmas Tree, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with Christ. Very few Christmas traditions have any real linkage to Christianity.
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That is what I actually wrote.

and I guided you to the point of your ignorance.
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And I then refuted you.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/144422-christmas-tree-vs-holiday-tree-6.html#post1061201714

You the proceeded to run away from that after you insulted me.

I provided a list of rituals and traditions that have nothing to do with Christ at all. My list is far more numerous then yours. And my list was just for starters. Remember your asinine reply, not rebuttal, reply, argued "family" as why I'm wrong. It doesn't get any weaker then that.

There's so much bull**** riding your points that it's hard to know where to begin
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It's a crying shame you say that and then will fail to prove any of that.

Take the moronic statement you made in #133 about you claiming to not be an atheist. You and I both know that's total horse ****, and yet you went ahead and made that claim
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That's your argument? if you bothered to read any of my posts I have made it abundantly clear I'm not an atheist. Go read the religion forum for a change. I have argued that all belief, atheism or theism is based on want. I personally don't know what exists, but I waffle on days between Deist and agnostic. Neither of those are actually a rejection in the belief in a higher power. You are just making up **** because you don't actually have an argument. I have years of posts showing I'm not an atheist.

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you make such idiotic statements?
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What idiotic statement? You mean like 4 years of posts where I show I'm not an atheist? Or you just making **** up because you don't have the maturity to fess up that you insulted someone who proved you wrong.

The only way you can expect that is if you are developmentally delayed, or you're just a bald face liar.
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Yeah. Since 2008. I've been totally lying about it. Even when I attack militant atheists. Cuz I'm lying. :shock: :roll:

Personally, I think it's a combination of both, but that's just my work experience speaking. The one tiny ray of truth in what you said is that you didn't deny that you're also an anti-Christ. That was telling, and I appreciate your honesty however accidental it may have been.
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I don't need to. I merely need to refute your atheist claim to put that to rest.

No, there's plenty wrong with you, obvious Child, and I could go on all day if you really want me to, but that's entirely up to you.
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And you're getting reported for that.

In the meantime, I'll keep treating your comments as I always have: like they hardly even exist. ;)
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Meaning you have no reply to post #133, and you are once again running away. Which makes you a liar in your claim you never run away.


None of this changes that you have epically failed to refute a single thing I said.

I listed a long number of Christmas Traditions, beliefs and stories that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Christ. Which was my original point. The same one you personally insulted me over. You have nothing to counter this. Nothing.
 
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obvious Child said:
Not quite. Democracy is merely the process of electing people. .
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Not quite (another example of not understanding the context of the word "democracy", who invented it and what it actually means.)

Democracy comes from the Greek - to be precise the ancient Greeks. It is comprised from two Greek words, "demos" meaning citizen, and "kratia" meaning the state or broadly speaking society.

So democracy is simple a system of organisation whereby the state is controlled by the citizenry - the citizens decide how to organise their communities and state function - how power and wealth is distributed.

Look up Solon and his important role in Athenian society around 400 BC

(don't tell me that you believed that democracy actually first sprouted from the United States of America?)
 
obvious Child said:
Actually you did.
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Actually I didn't. This idiocy started because you believe Christmas Trees have nothing to do with Christ. How do you know this? Did the Son of God himself reveal himself to you and tell you that it has nothing to do with Him? The history of the tree suggests otherwise. Taken from Merriam's Online Dictionary:

Evergreen tree, usually decorated with lights and ornaments, to celebrate the Christmas season. The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands as symbols of eternal life was common among the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. The Christian symbol can be traced to a German medieval play about Adam and Eve, which included the “paradise tree,” hung with apples. The modern, decorated version was widespread among German Lutherans by the 18th century. Brought to North America by German settlers in the 17th century, it had become widespread there by the mid-19th century. It was popularized in 19th-century England by Victoria's consort, the German Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg.

Where in that article does it prove me wrong? Especially starting with its Christian beginnings. The point I am making is what the Christmas Tree stands for now, especially among Christians, here in the US.

And I've seen zero evidence in your posts that proves you anything but an atheist/anti-Christian.
 
I'm certainly not Christian myself, so were decorated conifers mentioned in the new testament? Genuinely curious.
 
It's a festive evergreen celebrating the winter solstice.
 
LoopyPaladin said:
To my understanding, the celebration of Christmas is the only one of its kind that uses a tree in that respect, so I'm still calling it a Christmas tree. It's the same thing as the whole "happy holidays" versus "Merry Christmas" thing. What you call it depends how butthurt you are about it.
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This whole don't take the "Christ" out of "Christmas" thing always brings a smile to my face as it assumes that Christmas is the high holy holiday that is suppose to be about Christ. That may be true to many people, but that perception is factually based.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, Christmas is not a religious holiday by origin; nor is it the day on which Christ was born. To a great extent, the Catholic church chose a pagan celebration of the solistice as a means of evangelizing... and capriciously declared the day (either December 25 or January 6) the day on which Christ was born. The fact is, no one knows when Christ was born and its not very likely he was born in December.

The Christmas tree, specifically, has NOTHING to do with Christ. It is the centerpiece of the pagan holiday that the Catholic church hi-jacked (which, BTW, they also did with Easter, hijacking yet another pagan holiday celebrating the change of seasons)

The Shocking Pagan Origin of CHRISTMAS!

The fact is, whatever pagan religions or pagans created this winter solstice celebration has a better claim to tell Christians to get the Christ out of Christmas than Bill O'Reilly has with war on Christmas.

That all said, Christmas has become a celebration of the birth of Christ... though I would argue that Christians celebrate the birth, death and resurrection of Christ on every day and do need a particular designated day; especially given these dates have been arbitrarily, if not trivially, assigned.

I still enjoy Christmas and wishing all a Merry Christmas.. and given that I do not see a particular religious significance to Christmas (given I celebrate the birth of Christ daily), I am far more accepting of its secularization and commercialization. Therefore, I don't see the fuss about saying Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays or calling the Christmas tree a Christmas tree. Christmas is what Christmas is, a great day to spend with family and friends, enjoy the exchanging of gifts and great food. Merry Christmas!
 
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Dooble said:
Actually I didn't.
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Then you are a liar trice.

This idiocy started because you believe Christmas Trees have nothing to do with Christ.
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And history supports this. As history shows the majority of our rituals and traditions having absolutely nothing to do with Christ. You have YET to provide any actual rebuttal to this aside from Terms of Service violations.

How do you know this? Did the Son of God himself reveal himself to you and tell you that it has nothing to do with Him? The history of the tree suggests otherwise. Taken from Merriam's Online Dictionary:
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This is borderline insane. The argument that since God didn't tell you it wasn't Christ related, you can't prove it is not is functionally one of the most retarded arguments ever given. By your reasoning, Nazism is Christ related because God didn't tell me it wasn't. The fact that history shows something very different is irrelevant to you. Your sole criteria is that if Christ didn't tell you something, you can't be certain of it and therefore it could qualify.

I hereby declare that Killing Jews by the MILLIONS is Christ related. Why? Because Christ never said it wasn't. See how incredibly stupid your argument is?

Evergreen tree, usually decorated with lights and ornaments, to celebrate the Christmas season. The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands as symbols of eternal life was common among the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. The Christian symbol can be traced to a German medieval play about Adam and Eve, which included the “paradise tree,” hung with apples. The modern, decorated version was widespread among German Lutherans by the 18th century. Brought to North America by German settlers in the 17th century, it had become widespread there by the mid-19th century. It was popularized in 19th-century England by Victoria's consort, the German Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg.
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Oops. Furthermore, decorating Evergreen tree, usually decorated with lights and ornaments came from the Roman festival of Saturnalia well before Catholicism took root. And the German druids who originally practiced decorating trees prior to their conversion of Christianity did so to honor the Forest spirits. Druidism. Look it up. Christmas Trees have frankly nothing to do with Christ at all, but are a stolen tradition from Pagan cultures to make Christianity more appealing to non-Christians. Nothing about Christ's birth has ANYTHING to do with decorating trees.

Where in that article does it prove me wrong? Especially starting with its Christian beginnings. The point I am making is what the Christmas Tree stands for now, especially among Christians, here in the US.
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Because that article leaves out a sizable amount of per-Christian history, from the Roman festival of Saturnalia to Germanic Druidism, both of which engaged in tree decorating eons before Christ as born. If you actually KNEW anything about this subject, you wouldn't have insulted me as you would know that Christmas Trees are a stolen tradition from Pagan Cultures.

And I've seen zero evidence in your posts that proves you anything but an atheist/anti-Christian.
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And I've seen zero evidence in your posts that proves you do not simply fabricate whatever you want to suit your arguments. Go read my posts.

Seriously, you just gave the logic that if Christ didn't say it's not, it's part of Christmas. I thereby declare on Dooble's logic the HOLOCAUST is Christmas related.

How are these ACTUALLY Christ related Dooble, or are you going to run away once again?

Christmas Trees
Gift Giving (and it's whole slew of Commercialization)
Mistletoe
Yule Tide Logs
Eggnog
Frosty the Snowman
December 25 as Christ's Birthday (which it clearly cannot be based on the descriptions in the Bible)
Santa Claus
Christmas Stockings
Holly, Ivy and Greenery
Poinsettias
Jack Frost
Christmas cards
Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer
 
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ChrisL said:
I thought this thread was about Christmas trees? :lol:

I want to know why anyone would object to calling it a "Christmas" tree. Is it because the word "Christ" is in it? Is it because people are offended by the Christmas holiday? I would like someone to give me a clear reason why they object to Christmas trees.
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I think the "mas" part denigrates fat people.
 
Klown said:
Not quite (another example of not understanding the context of the word "democracy", who invented it and what it actually means.)

Democracy comes from the Greek - to be precise the ancient Greeks. It is comprised from two Greek words, "demos" meaning citizen, and "kratia" meaning the state or broadly speaking society.

So democracy is simple a system of organisation whereby the state is controlled by the citizenry - the citizens decide how to organise their communities and state function - how power and wealth is distributed.
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Yes, but in modern terms, we do that in Democratic societies by voting for our representatives who decide how to organize communities and state functions, as well as distribute wealth and power. The problem in America is that for the most part at the Federal level, it's a slate of Plutocrats. We are still controlling our economy by choosing to to vote for, but those who decide are largely the rich. Aside from Biden and DeMint, most Congress members are bloody rich.

(don't tell me that you believed that democracy actually first sprouted from the United States of America?)
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Oh Hell No. Democracy is far older then the United States. Plus even back in Athens, not everyone was allowed to vote.
 
Cardinal said:
I'm certainly not Christian myself, so were decorated conifers mentioned in the new testament? Genuinely curious.
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Getting Dooble to actually provide a real argument is impossible. Dooble just argued that if Christ HIMSELF didn't tell you himself it's not related, it therefore is. I hereby declare strip clubs Christmas related on the sole criteria given by Dooble that Christ never said they weren't!

Very few of our Christmas stories, traditions and rituals have anything to do with Christ. Most of them were stolen from Pagans with no ties to Christanity other than the Catholic's Church desire to appeal more towards Pagans. Man wasn't even born in December for crying out loud!
 
obvious Child said:
Yes, but in modern terms, we do that in Democratic societies by voting for our representatives who decide how to organize communities and state functions, as well as distribute wealth and power. The problem in America is that for the most part at the Federal level, it's a slate of Plutocrats. We are still controlling our economy by choosing to to vote for, but those who decide are largely the rich. Aside from Biden and DeMint, most Congress members are bloody rich.
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You didn't quite follow my point.

Democracy implies the citizen controls the manner in which power and wealth is distributed and how the society is organised

What you have in the USA is an Oligarchical (another Greek word) Corpocracy

The highest form of fascism ever developed by HUman civilisation on a large scale

I hope that you are not become accustomed to your slavery??
 
obvious Child said:
Then you are a liar trice.
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Everything about you is a lie. You calling me a liar is akin to that idiot Congressman, Hank Johnson, telling the world that Guam floats. Both Democrats, both delusional in your lies.

obvious Child said:
And history supports this. As history shows the majority of our rituals and traditions having absolutely nothing to do with Christ.
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Your opinion supports this. The primary thrust behind the history of the Christmas Tree is religious based. It was religous based at the time of Pharoah, and it's based in religion today. It's cynics like you, who insist that it's nothing more than commercialized nonsense, to say otherwise. In my circles, the Christmas tree symbolizes the very spirit of Christmas, because we use this time to remember what's most important. Do you have any idea what that may be?

obvious Child said:
This is borderline insane.
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No, it isn't. It's a crazy response to an even crazier opinion. The facts are these: Your experience with Christmas tells you its commercialized bull****, and my experience tells me its an opportunity to spread goodwill. The history of the tree is based in spirituality, and nothing you do or say can change that fact. You're wrong, oC. I'm sorry.

obvious Child said:
I hereby declare that Killing Jews by the MILLIONS is Christ related.
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I hereby declare you unfit to post in public forums.

obvious Child said:
Oops. Furthermore, decorating Evergreen tree, usually decorated with lights and ornaments came from...
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Oops, we're not talking about ornaments, obvious Child, we're talking about the symbolism of the Christmas Tree and how it relates to Christ. By the way, we put an angel on top of our tree, a Christian angel. How fitting that we put a symbol of Christ at the very top of the tree. ;)


obvious Child said:
Because that article leaves out a sizable amount of per-Christian history, from the Roman festival of Saturnalia to Germanic Druidism, both of which engaged in tree decorating eons before Christ as born. If you actually KNEW anything about this subject, you wouldn't have insulted me as you would know that Christmas Trees are a stolen tradition from Pagan Cultures.
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It was adapted, you silly cynic, not stolen. Nobody's trying to tell you that Baby Jesus was the founder of the Christmas Tree. Get off your sanctimonious history lesson, and understand this debate. The history of the Christmas Tree began in the 19th Century. It was ADAPTED, not STOLEN, and it was ADAPTED because of its historical connection to spirituality & religion.

obvious Child said:
And I've seen zero evidence in your posts that proves you do not simply fabricate whatever you want to suit your arguments. Go read my posts.
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That's because you see only what you want to see. Take Christmas, for example. You despise Christmas Trees, and you probably can't even stand the holiday itself -- except, of course, that it's a day off from work (for most people at least) and in that case it's the best day since your las holiday off! ;)

obvious Child said:
I thereby declare on Dooble's logic the HOLOCAUST is Christmas related.
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And I hereby declare you equal opportunity hater of everything, even all that is good and uplifiting! Oh, wait... that's already been declared.

obvious Child said:
How are these ACTUALLY Christ related Dooble, or are you going to run away once again?

Christmas Trees
Gift Giving (and it's whole slew of Commercialization)
Mistletoe
Yule Tide Logs
Eggnog
Frosty the Snowman
December 25 as Christ's Birthday (which it clearly cannot be based on the descriptions in the Bible)
Santa Claus
Christmas Stockings
Holly, Ivy and Greenery
Poinsettias
Jack Frost
Christmas cards
Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer
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Sure thing.

Christmas Trees: The symbolisms of the spirit of Christmas (at least in positive circles, not your circles).
Gift Giving: Expresses one's love toward another, even commercial gifts at times. Expressing love is definitely Christian
Mistletoe: They have beauty, and Christ is also about beauty. Also, standing under mistletoe gives an opportunity to kiss your true love.
The rest of your list represents happy memories, and family traditions. Christ is all about what makes us happy and what bonds us together as families.

This activity has been good, oC. It has helped remind me of the positives of Christmas, and also how negative your side of the holiday is.
 
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