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Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

Could secession ever be appropriate?


  • Total voters
    83
I'm curious: why do you think the government forces views on people?

Because that's what government is for: to force people to live and behave in certain fashion, ideally for the benefit of all.
 
Texas would sink like a rock if it seceded. Why? Ever read the State of Texas Budget, which will clearly show how much Texas depends on Federal dollars to make ends meet.

Texas government doesn't pay for most of the various education institutions to any great extent, the Federal Government does.

The State of Texas highway infrastructure would turn to dusty wagon trails if it weren't for Federal money.

What about a genuine, full blown, military to protect the "Republic of Texas"? The National Guard...whether it be Army or Air Force...are currently paid mostly by Federal dollars. Being a coastal state...Texas would have to have it's own Navy to secure it's coastal border. That aint cheap, brothers and sisters.

Texas would have to have its on Immigration Service, which is currently for paid with mostly Federal money.

Texas would have serious problems managing health care related issues for JUST CHILDREN and ELDERLY people - both which happen to be the largest political minorities in the nation.

Want 10s of thousands of kids packing around in the streets like in major countries in South America? Texas would be goggled down with trying to hire law enforcement to try and manage 100s of kid gangs who wreak havoc on business and residents...stealing everything thing they get their hands on. Believe that can't happen in Texas? It would because the cost of managing so many thousands of kids in the CPS system would be all but nonexistent.

I could go on for days pointing out ALL OF THE FEDERAL MONIES THAT TEXAS TAKES that PERRY WON'T TELL YOU ABOUT. Texans would face many, many financial issues if Texas did secede.

People need to understand the accounting aspect of running a town, city, state, or country before they blast off the emotional side of being discontent with the downfalls of our Federal government. We ALL allowed the mess our nation is in...so now we will pay the piper.

OH...think Texas could survive on selling its oil? Sure it could UNTIL a compound or mud pump breaks down, which can only come from a source in "another country" who would be happy to rape Texas Drilling Contractors and Oil Companies.

Speaking of oil companies. Who owns rights to the oil in Texas? You think Texans do? Yep, Texas would have to nationalize it's oil production. Then the fun begins.
 
Because that's what government is for: to force people to live and behave in certain fashion, ideally for the benefit of all.

Behaving in certain ways is different than forcing views on people. There has to be laws to set the boundaries of how we should act in society. Forcing views on people is completely different.
 
Behaving in certain ways is different than forcing views on people. There has to be laws to set the boundaries of how we should act in society. Forcing views on people is completely different.

If your views are incompatible with government's boundaries, your choices are either insurrection or hypocrisy. How is that not forcing their views upon you?
 
If your views are incompatible with government's boundaries, your choices are either insurrection or hypocrisy. How is that not forcing their views upon you?

Because they're not forcing me to accept a particular political, philosophical, or religious view.
 
Since many believe there is no right to secession, does that mean you would not support secession regardless of what the federal government did?

It could be warranted and acceptable. Same as revolution, same as beheading some politicians.
 
Because it wasn't necessary. You said secession was treason without any caveats.
Well logically people do not assert that a part of this country should break off of the whole without a good reason.



Thanks for the historical revisionism but no, it was still Germany.
Well you are sort of right the name Germany was still being used, but Nazi Germany was by no means the same country that it was. The form of government changed entirely and the citizens were besieged by this new government. So yes technically that is what is considered a new country even if the name remains the same.


It has happened throughout history. Granted, the more powerful nation usually wins, but if a group of people believe enough in a cause they will fight for it despite poor odds.
What the hell are you talking about? The US is one country, the states are only sections of this one nation not separate nations.


Yes, but that isn't relevant.
I would normally agree but you seem to not know Americans very well.
 
So if the people voted for it and lets say some seventy percent(extremely high I know) voted for secession the proper response would be to support going to war with seventy percent of the people in the state. You honestly don't see anything off about your argument at all do you?
A State cannot vote itself out of the union without declaring war on the US.

Btw, we are not talking about corruption or some sort of small movement of people taking over the state, but secession in general which could easily be voted on by the people and/or the government.
Again the act of secession is an declaration of war on the US. And would be treated as such. Secession is just a pipe dream of people who have no clue of what they are talking about. But secession make good fodder for the militia types.
 
Well logically people do not assert that a part of this country should break off of the whole without a good reason.

Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.



What the hell are you talking about? The US is one country, the states are only sections of this one nation not separate nations.

If a state seceded it becomes a separate nation (although the dictator may not recognize its sovereignty). The South became a separate nation during the Civil War despite the North's refusal to recognize it as separate.

I would normally agree but you seem to not know Americans very well.

So since we disagree about secession you assume that I don't know Americans very well?

And btw, I majored in History so I know enough to talk about it.
 
We could just amend the Constitution you know......
 
At least you guys don't have a Quebec.
 
I'd be all for it if I didn't live in California.....you have to remember it could be worse.
 
Since many believe there is no right to secession, does that mean you would not support secession regardless of what the federal government did?

That’s a tough question, while I can see just some of the many problems that would arise from such a thing, I keep looking at how divided this country has become, there seems to be less and less middle left and middle right.
We seem to have already become of nation of liberal values VS conservative values. Almost everyone I come in contact with has a we against them mentality. As our nation becomes more and more divided, so does our government, and I understand that, after all they represent those that elected them. As our government becomes more and more polarized gridlock between the parties becomes worse and worse.

I see at this time secession, peacefully done, as about the only viable option. We aren’t at war yet, so I don’t see why they couldn’t sit down at a table and work out details allowing such a thing to take place. People and business could be given 5 years (pick your period of time) to move to states that fit their thinking in values. With no penalty after that it would be like moving to any other country.

From the way this country is going, the divide getting wider, tempers becoming shorter and little hope of anyone or anything closing that gap between the parties I guess I would support secession, before I would support another civil war in this country.

Contrary to one poster in here, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the beliefs of people on both sides. What our Constitution means and implies, what our government should be and do, and at times even the very basic concept of what is right and wrong. That list could just go on and on. We have become a nation that is divided by our beliefs. In my opinion it would be better to peacefully divide ourselves then it would be to get into another civil war over our beliefs.
 
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Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.
Thank you for your opinion though it did not do a damn thing.


If a state seceded it becomes a separate nation (although the dictator may not recognize its sovereignty). The South became a separate nation during the Civil War despite the North's refusal to recognize it as separate.
The South tried to become of a separate nation but in the end failed. And since you are asserting the creation of a new nation on the land of the old nation. Then you should not deny that secession is a provocative move. Its like walking on to someone elses land and squatting demanding that they give it to them.

But that is if there was no reason stated. In the case of the South they stated the reason but that reason was rejected with good reason. We simply could not tolerate a slave nation that took our land from us to exist.



So since we disagree about secession you assume that I don't know Americans very well?

And btw, I majored in History so I know enough to talk about it.
I dont care what cracker jack box that you got your education out of. My point was that Americans do not want this country to balkinize and will not stand for it especially from small factions. Take a look around there is not a popular support for any State to secede the Union. This is really a non-issue drummed up by radicals that have realized that they could never get the support of the entire nation. So they figure then that it would be easier to just get a portion of American land for their endeavors. But they are not smart enough to realize that they couldnt even convince a county to secede.
 
Thank you for your opinion though it did not do a damn thing.

I did not expect it to.


The South tried to become of a separate nation but in the end failed.

They failed but saw themselves as a separate nation between 1860 through 1865. As stated before, the North and most of the rest of the world did not see them as separate, but it depends on who you ask. One thing is for sure, the US was not unified at that time.

And since you are asserting the creation of a new nation on the land of the old nation. Then you should not deny that secession is a provocative move.

Did I say secession isn't a provocative move?

Its like walking on to someone elses land and squatting demanding that they give it to them.

No, not the same thing. Those who secede are not invaders/trespassers. They are mostly people who have lived in the country/state for their entire lives and have a long lineage of American blood.


I dont care what cracker jack box that you got your education out of.

Let's leave the personal insults out of it, okay?

My point was that Americans do not want this country to balkinize and will not stand for it especially from small factions.

I agree they don't. And I already made clear I won't support any moves towards secession unless under extreme circumstances.

This is really a non-issue drummed up by radicals that have realized that they could never get the support of the entire nation. So they figure then that it would be easier to just get a portion of American land for their endeavors. But they are not smart enough to realize that they couldnt even convince a county to secede.

Its just a minority who are having a tantrum over the election. It will subside. However, you seem to be under the impression that I support these folks.
 
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I did not expect it to.
Then it would have better to be economical then.




T
hey failed but saw themselves as a separate nation between 1860 through 1865. As stated before, the North and most of the rest of the world did not see them as separate, but it depends on who you ask. One thing is for sure, the US was not unified at that time.
SOme malitia people thought that they seceded their property from the union as well, but in reality they had not. But I agree that the US was no unified during the Civil War. lol



Did I say secession isn't a provocative move?
Probably not but I was making the point that a secession would not be a peaceful endeavor. I was also trying to point out that there are many different causes of civil war, an attempted secession is just one of them.



No, not the same thing. Those who secede are not invaders/trespassers. They are mostly people who have lived in the country/state for their entire lives and have a long lineage of American blood.
Once Americans cross that line they no longer Americans unless they are seceding to leave a government that replaced the US Government but thats an entirely different ordeal.



Let's leave the personal insults out of it, okay?
It was not a insult, at least not anymore than your nationalist accusation: Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.



I agree they don't. And I already made clear I won't support any moves towards secession unless under extreme circumstances.
My point again is that the extreme circumstances take the idea of seceding to a different level since the state would not be seceding from the US but from a new government that replaced the US. But in that case I do not see a single state seceding from the new Government but all of them in unison while we prepared for Civil War.



Its just a minority who are having a tantrum over the election. It will subside. However, you seem to be under the impression that I support these folks.
Take notice that I did not say you but said they.

My point is that there is no legitimate reason to secede from the union. The only secession that is valid is if we were seceding from a new government. Anything less than that is counterproductive to the attempt to stop those responsible.
 
Probably not but I was making the point that a secession would not be a peaceful endeavor. I was also trying to point out that there are many different causes of civil war, an attempted secession is just one of them.

Well I agree on that. And an attempt at secession, whether justified or not, would most likely end in failure either politically or militarily. Where I think we disagree on is whether it is ever justified under a "republican" government.



Once Americans cross that line they no longer Americans

The whole purpose of seceding is to end citizenship to the US so I'm sure that point is not lost on them.


unless they are seceding to leave a government that replaced the US Government but thats an entirely different ordeal.

I disagree on the idea that it would have to take a sudden coupe of the US government to have justified secession. I could see a situation where over several decades the "republic" becomes so corrupted and power so centralized that some of the citizenry decides enough is enough and secedes. But for me, it would have to get pretty bad.

Unfortunately, I think Thomas Jefferson was right when he said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."


It was not a insult, at least not anymore than your nationalist accusation: Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.

That comment was actually directed more towards the people you referred to who will not tolerate secession. Some may use logic on the issue, but nationalism is so ingrained in some people that it would replace all rational thinking.




Take notice that I did not say you but said they.

Well glad at least that is clear.
 
A State cannot vote itself out of the union without declaring war on the US.

I'm guessing you are basing this on Texas v. White?

Again the act of secession is an declaration of war on the US. And would be treated as such. Secession is just a pipe dream of people who have no clue of what they are talking about. But secession make good fodder for the militia types.

To be perfectly honest the people that support it being called illegal have no idea what they are talking about. Regardless, nationalism is generally useless.
 
the problem would be the obvious one. Who gets what? The Jesus map is a farce of some demented Limbaugh fan.

Each group would have to have access to the Atlantic and Pacific, the Mississippi, deep water ports, the food belt and industry.

How would the people be moved who wanted to leave. Be compensated for thier loss of job, business or property? Would busineses corporations and industry just suddenly pack up and move?

How would the military be divided? How would short range and medium range nukes be handled. Treaty. What if one group said no?

Government files, agencies, international organizations, companies, infrastructure?

If you think its as easy as drawing a line in the sand think real hard and then think again.

That is a most excellent answer! The people who talk about secession are only concerned for themselves and fail to think beyond their own emotions. There is more talk about secession now because the people who think that way are racists who are intolerant about a president who is biracial. We only have to look at some places like the Balkans and the problems they have there and perhaps these secessionist folks will give it a second thought provided they have the wisdom to think.

A poll taken shows that they all want to secede because we have a biracial president.
 
I think the principle of succession is good, it keeps an extra check on the federal government and allows states a way to defend themselves against corruption. At this point the federal government has consistently violated so many civil liberties as to render itself illegitimate. It may be to the point that only a mass movement of the states can reduce and reform the corrupted federal government.

Right now, in my opinion, we need to promote and defend states rights and the principles of federalism against the rising trend of authoritarianism in government.

So you do not believe there is corruption in state governments? What the f*** are you talking about? Look at states such as Florida, Ohio, Alabama, Mississippi. These states have violated civil liberties. So what the f*** are you talking about?
 
I don't see a possible scenario where secession won't lead to war. Our nation is interdependent and connected, and if part of that whole were to suddenly disappear from the greater machine, it will create economic disaster. We will either fight to keep ourselves one nation, or fight over the resources that are suddenly held by a neighboring nation that is, by its very design, hostile to our interests. If you want to destroy this country, embroiling it in a second civil war would be the quickest way to do it.

So who are these people who talk about secession?
 
That is a most excellent answer! The people who talk about secession are only concerned for themselves and fail to think beyond their own emotions. There is more talk about secession now because the people who think that way are racists who are intolerant about a president who is biracial. We only have to look at some places like the Balkans and the problems they have there and perhaps these secessionist folks will give it a second thought provided they have the wisdom to think.

A poll taken shows that they all want to secede because we have a biracial president.

I must have struck a nerve or something. I have never gotten this many likes on a post since I've been here.

Actually. I spend some of my time writing 'stories" about things I am interested in so I can see how they work out in my mind. I wrote one about this subject but I don't share it with people because its very primitive.

The complications of this subject are just staggering. Back in CW days with only 40 million people this was a very doable thing. Today with 300+ not even in your dreams.

If Texas is the main force behind this then let them go back to Mexico and se how they like it there compared to here. All talk no brains.
 
I think the principle of succession is good, it keeps an extra check on the federal government and allows states a way to defend themselves against corruption. At this point the federal government has consistently violated so many civil liberties as to render itself illegitimate. It may be to the point that only a mass movement of the states can reduce and reform the corrupted federal government.

Right now, in my opinion, we need to promote and defend states rights and the principles of federalism against the rising trend of authoritarianism in government.
Oh. The state, or even a portion of a state, could succeeded, and could become a Mormon country. That would sure correct the "authoritarianism in government". Oh, btw, we have had that in Northern Arizona for years. It sure is neat there. Especially if you are a man with authority.
 
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