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Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

Could secession ever be appropriate?


  • Total voters
    83
Please list one "civil liberty" that has been UNDULY violated by our government....without good reason...

Almost every right we have has been violated. I'll list a few.

4th Amendment: TSA was founded.

1st Amendment: Your not allowed to peacefully assemble anymore(remember Occupy?). Oh and you can't protest
anywhere there might be a secret service agent(which is almost, EVERYWHERE).

2nd Amendment: They are already trying to work on banning guns.

That enough for ya?
 
Please list one "civil liberty" that has been UNDULY violated by our government....without good reason...

Start with the Patriot Act and Defense Autherization. Do you seriously believe that suspension of Habeas Corpus is not a violation of your civil liberty?

Maybe we should lock you up for a while without even charging you with a crime, a lawyer or even a phone call to give you some time to rethink your position.
 
Individually you can do whatever you please and leave the union, but as a State that is not happening. And those individuals and factions that try to force a secession are traitors.

That is not what the constitution says. :mrgreen:

And dont try silliness with me I didnt fall your attempt to marginalize me so that I join your silly ass attempt to justify secession. There will be no such thing as a peaceful secession. The Civil war sealed that deal a long time ago.

Well then, if the federal government decides to kill people leaving their rule they are the aggressors. Fair enough?
 
Ask yourself, why did the colonists secede? Unfair taxation without representation, religious persecution, and various other things.

You stated that there is no good reason for secession.


Why do the red states want to secede today? Because they're candidate didn't win the election.

And I don't believe they should be trying to secede.

That's not rational, that's a child throwing a temper tantrum.

I agree. Fortunately, most temper tantrums end eventually.



And no, it wasn't a good idea for Texas.

To secede from Mexico?



Only under extreme circumstances, like when one of the spouses is abusive.

I agree. The same should apply for secession.


Divorce is used too much today for the dumbest reasons, so I would support restrictions on it.

Well I agree there are way too many divorces these days but I strongly disagree with restrictions on it. That is a slippery slope with very big consequences.



It goes against the fairy tale of "united states". There's no unity. And, just because I'm a liberal, doesn't mean I accept everything every liberal, like Thomas Paine, ever said as gospel.

Never claimed Thomas Paine's words as gospel. Just trying to figure why you claim secession goes against individualism when it has historically been individualists who have supported secessions.

So do you think seceding from England was a good or bad thing?
 
But the states would join together to oust the dictatorship, not break apart into separate divisions.

So secession is treason but violently ousting the ruler is okay?
 
If our federal government reinstated slavery, or was taken over by fascists or nazis (this could happen - check our congress , loaded with tea baggers)
secession is still not the way to go!

Wow. Just wow.
 
You stated that there is no good reason for secession.

And I stand by that statement. That doesn't mean that it's not sometimes a necessary evil.

To secede from Mexico?

I have problems with the way we came about getting this land. So no, I don't believe it was a good thing for us to steal land. It's not that much different than what's happening in Palestine.

I agree. The same should apply for secession.

As per my first statement, I think that it's sometimes a necessary evil.

Well I agree there are way too many divorces these days but I strongly disagree with restrictions on it. That is a slippery slope with very big consequences.

Possibly, and I have my theories on it, but that's not for this thread.

Never claimed Thomas Paine's words as gospel. Just trying to figure why you claim secession goes against individualism when it has historically been individualists who have supported secessions.

I am a loner and an introvert. I'd rather be by myself and left alone. However, I realize that I have to be a productive member of society. While I think anarchism is a great ideal, it's not practical in the long run. But that is what I am. This leaves me conflicted with such issues as secession, because on the one hand, I'm sometimes lean toward anarchy, and think that individual rights come before the rights of the state or people, however, on the other hand, I'm not irrational enough to think that I have some sort of special privilege that would allow me to operate in such a fashion, as such, I understand that I have to be a part of the society in which I live. This is why I think that secession is a bad idea, but that would also be dependent on a case by case basis. So, from an individualist point of view, I don't see secession as always being the wrong way, however, as someone trying to be a part of society, I think that it destroys the unity a nation should have to thrive and succeed.

So do you think seceding from England was a good or bad thing?

Short answer, it is what it is. They had their reasons, and whether it was good or bad, it's the way things are. I think more diplomatic actions could have been taken to avoid such a mess, but I also don't have any clear cut answers as to how that would have taken shape.
 
That is not what the constitution says. :mrgreen:



Well then, if the federal government decides to kill people leaving their rule they are the aggressors. Fair enough?
No that is not fair enough because it really over simplifies reality as if we were talking about the plot of a lame movie.

So secession is treason but violently ousting the ruler is okay?
Did you miss the part about the dictatorship? A dictatorship would mean that some faction overtook the US Government and the US is no longer and a new country has replaced it. I have no problem violent ousting the new country that violently took over America. Because face it the only that is happening in through violence.
 
No that is not fair enough because it really over simplifies reality as if we were talking about the plot of a lame movie.

Is that not how you laid it out? A state/s leaves the union and the US government would issue war against those that left the union. What do you think happens in war exactly? Do you think the federal government isn't actually issuing the death of many of the citizens of that state and going to kill many of them? Would that not be exactly what is going to happen?
 
I would not oppose secession for a serious breach of trust etc with the government. Of course the reasons people are giving now with the petition etc are just ridicules and childish.
 
Please list one "civil liberty" that has been UNDULY violated by our government....without good reason...

NDAA 2012 Sec. 1021 and 1022, allowing indefinite detention of American citizens. Violation the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendment.
USA Patriot Act, allowing warrant-less searches and seizures, violation of the fourth amendment.

That's just two examples, there are many more. Our rights are not optional, able to be tossed aside for political convenience. The government recognizes and secures our rights, it doesn't issue and revoke them. All such violations of our rights are unacceptable and we need to hold the government accountable.
 
Secession is never a good idea. The last time I checked, this was the 'United' States of America. Those who think secession is a viable option, in my opinion, don't really believe that we are united. It shows that the country is not, at heart, in their interests. It shows that they don't really think we are a people united. It shows that they don't believe in freedom, and especially individualism, which is something that I thought was supposed to be a hallmark of Republican ideas. Which also shows the futility and uselessness of their ideas.

So you are right it would be in disagreement with collectivism, but how could it also be opposed to individualism?
 
Is that not how you laid it out?
No

A state/s leaves the union and the US government would issue war against those that left the union. What do you think happens in war exactly?
Please refer to the Civil War for your answers.

Do you think the federal government isn't actually issuing the death of many of the citizens of that state and going to kill many of them? Would that not be exactly what is going to happen?
The only way that an entire state would decide to secede is by the usurpation of the states government. The war would be between the US people and the faction that overtook the that state and are holding the citizens of that state captive.

We have to look at this from reality and the fact is that only small far right groups actually are serious about talking of states secession's. The percentage is very small and nothing new just another fringe movement going nowhere. They just think that current events will spring board their movement just in the same way that the Occupiers thought that current events would spring board their fringe movement. All this talk is fantasy and has just as much chance as Cascadia. And the reason is that despite what the far right and the far left think Americans will fight against such usurpation. So save your rhetoric for your far right militia group meetings please.
 

Yes

Please refer to the Civil War for your answers.

Everything I said happened in the civil war.

The only way that an entire state would decide to secede is by the usurpation of the states government. The war would be between the US people and the faction that overtook the that state and are holding the citizens of that state captive.

Did I even mention this at all? Still, regardless of how it came about if the federal government issues a declaration of war on a state leaving the union people in that state are going to die from the war to come. There is no way around that. So it is patriotism to support such an act or is it the opposite? Is patriotism about supporting the liberty of your fellow Americans or supporting the power of the state? You decide. I see nothing honorable about killing people in such an event, but you do apparently.
 
Any attempt at secession would lead by necessity to a civil war. The question then becomes, at what point do political differences justify going to war with your own people?

It's a tough question. Especially since someone is going to have to fire the first shot.

I will tell you my point. When they harm my family or me. And not before then. At that point there is NO alternative. Then its all out, balls out, hardcore no quarter expected, no quarter granted, kill em all and dont worry if god sorts em out or not. I sincerly hope it NEVER gets to that point.
 
And I stand by that statement. That doesn't mean that it's not sometimes a necessary evil.

Now you're playing with semantics. When you say "there is no good reason for secession" then you are stating that it is never necessary.



I have problems with the way we came about getting this land.

Same here.

So no, I don't believe it was a good thing for us to steal land. It's not that much different than what's happening in Palestine.

Never said anything about whether it was okay to steal land.



Possibly, and I have my theories on it, but that's not for this thread.

Agreed.




While I think anarchism is a great ideal, it's not practical in the long run.

There are aspects of anarchism I appreciate myself. I like some of Gary Chartier's thoughts on the subject and Fred Foldvary's writings on geoanarchism. However, I don't completely reject government and I understand its place in society. But I digress.

But that is what I am. This leaves me conflicted with such issues as secession, because on the one hand, I'm sometimes lean toward anarchy, and think that individual rights come before the rights of the state or people, however, on the other hand, I'm not irrational enough to think that I have some sort of special privilege that would allow me to operate in such a fashion, as such, I understand that I have to be a part of the society in which I live. This is why I think that secession is a bad idea, but that would also be dependent on a case by case basis. So, from an individualist point of view, I don't see secession as always being the wrong way, however, as someone trying to be a part of society, I think that it destroys the unity a nation should have to thrive and succeed.

Remember that while secession doesn't always look pretty it can often make things better for everyone in the long run. I keep bringing up the colonies and England and I'll do it here again: For us to break away from England ended up being for the best for both countries. We have trade, alliance, and diplomacy. I think if we remained a colony of England things would have remained ugly for many years.

Although I don't officially call myself a pacifist, I'd say I'm pretty dang close to it. War is ugly to me and almost always unnecessary. I feel the same a lot of times about secession: it can be ugly, and its usually unnecessary. But unlike war, when it happens, its almost always necessary.



Short answer, it is what it is. They had their reasons, and whether it was good or bad, it's the way things are. I think more diplomatic actions could have been taken to avoid such a mess, but I also don't have any clear cut answers as to how that would have taken shape.

I think the majority of both sides would have preferred to have seen a peaceful resolution to the conflict. But what we do know for sure is we did secede and I think we came out better for it.
 
So you are right it would be in disagreement with collectivism, but how could it also be opposed to individualism?

Because the whole reason why they're seceding is that the rest of the US won't agree with them, think like them, act like them, believe like them. They want everyone to be the exact same. They don't support freedom of speech, religion, or everyone's right to disagree with each other.
 
Did you miss the part about the dictatorship?

No, I saw that part.

A dictatorship would mean that some faction overtook the US Government and the US is no longer and a new country has replaced it.

So Germany was no longer Germany when Hitler took over?


I have no problem violent ousting the new country that violently took over America. Because face it the only that is happening in through violence.

I have no problem with violent overthrow of a dictator if its necessary. But I also don't mind secession if overthrow doesn't work out (and yes, I am aware that the dictator would probably go to war over it).
 
Yes



Everything I said happened in the civil war.



Did I even mention this at all? Still, regardless of how it came about if the federal government issues a declaration of war on a state leaving the union people in that state are going to die from the war to come. There is no way around that. So it is patriotism to support such an act or is it the opposite? Is patriotism about supporting the liberty of your fellow Americans or supporting the power of the state? You decide. I see nothing honorable about killing people in such an event, but you do apparently.

Thanx for your strawman response. BTW I made it clear that it would not be the Government vs the people of said state, I said that it would be the people vs the corrupt faction that took over said state. If such a thing happened in my state I would happily welcome the US Governments help in destroying the faction that thought that they could take over this state.

And quit blatantly putting words in my mouth. Or keep it up actually and show everyone here just what kind of debater that you are.
 
No, I saw that part.
Really then why didnt you seem to address that?



So Germany was no longer Germany when Hitler took over?
Bingo!




I have no problem with violent overthrow of a dictator if its necessary. But I also don't mind secession if overthrow doesn't work out (and yes, I am aware that the dictator would probably go to war over it).
Lol what makes you think that one state would fight against a dictatorship independently as if they were a separate nation? Do you even live in America?
 
Thanx for your strawman response. BTW I made it clear that it would not be the Government vs the people of said state, I said that it would be the people vs the corrupt faction that took over said state. If such a thing happened in my state I would happily welcome the US Governments help in destroying the faction that thought that they could take over this state.

So if the people voted for it and lets say some seventy percent(extremely high I know) voted for secession the proper response would be to support going to war with seventy percent of the people in the state. You honestly don't see anything off about your argument at all do you?

Btw, we are not talking about corruption or some sort of small movement of people taking over the state, but secession in general which could easily be voted on by the people and/or the government.
 
Really then why didnt you seem to address that?

Because it wasn't necessary. You said secession was treason without any caveats.


Thanks for the historical revisionism but no, it was still Germany.



Lol what makes you think that one state would fight against a dictatorship independently as if they were a separate nation?

It has happened throughout history. Granted, the more powerful nation usually wins, but if a group of people believe enough in a cause they will fight for it despite poor odds.

Do you even live in America?

Yes, but that isn't relevant.
 
Because the whole reason why they're seceding is that the rest of the US won't agree with them, think like them, act like them, believe like them. They want everyone to be the exact same. They don't support freedom of speech, religion, or everyone's right to disagree with each other.

Government forces views on people though, so that can't be called freedom.
 
I will tell you my point. When they harm my family or me. And not before then. At that point there is NO alternative. Then its all out, balls out, hardcore no quarter expected, no quarter granted, kill em all and dont worry if god sorts em out or not. I sincerly hope it NEVER gets to that point.

There are moral principles over which I would make war against my own people. Maybe if there were another government on Earth that I could stand to live under, but I haven't found one yet and I've been looking for years. If the government of the United States is no longer morally acceptable, then there is no place left on Earth for me-- and I will be damned before I lie down and die quietly while the world succumbs to tyranny.
 
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