View Poll Results: Could secession ever be appropriate?

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  • Secession could possibly be acceptable

    69 70.41%
  • Secession is never acceptable

    29 29.59%
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Thread: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

  1. #61
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Please list one "civil liberty" that has been UNDULY violated by our government....without good reason...
    NDAA 2012 Sec. 1021 and 1022, allowing indefinite detention of American citizens. Violation the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendment.
    USA Patriot Act, allowing warrant-less searches and seizures, violation of the fourth amendment.

    That's just two examples, there are many more. Our rights are not optional, able to be tossed aside for political convenience. The government recognizes and secures our rights, it doesn't issue and revoke them. All such violations of our rights are unacceptable and we need to hold the government accountable.

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyanaprajna2011 View Post
    Secession is never a good idea. The last time I checked, this was the 'United' States of America. Those who think secession is a viable option, in my opinion, don't really believe that we are united. It shows that the country is not, at heart, in their interests. It shows that they don't really think we are a people united. It shows that they don't believe in freedom, and especially individualism, which is something that I thought was supposed to be a hallmark of Republican ideas. Which also shows the futility and uselessness of their ideas.
    So you are right it would be in disagreement with collectivism, but how could it also be opposed to individualism?
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  3. #63
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Is that not how you laid it out?
    No

    A state/s leaves the union and the US government would issue war against those that left the union. What do you think happens in war exactly?
    Please refer to the Civil War for your answers.

    Do you think the federal government isn't actually issuing the death of many of the citizens of that state and going to kill many of them? Would that not be exactly what is going to happen?
    The only way that an entire state would decide to secede is by the usurpation of the states government. The war would be between the US people and the faction that overtook the that state and are holding the citizens of that state captive.

    We have to look at this from reality and the fact is that only small far right groups actually are serious about talking of states secession's. The percentage is very small and nothing new just another fringe movement going nowhere. They just think that current events will spring board their movement just in the same way that the Occupiers thought that current events would spring board their fringe movement. All this talk is fantasy and has just as much chance as Cascadia. And the reason is that despite what the far right and the far left think Americans will fight against such usurpation. So save your rhetoric for your far right militia group meetings please.

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    No
    Yes

    Please refer to the Civil War for your answers.
    Everything I said happened in the civil war.

    The only way that an entire state would decide to secede is by the usurpation of the states government. The war would be between the US people and the faction that overtook the that state and are holding the citizens of that state captive.
    Did I even mention this at all? Still, regardless of how it came about if the federal government issues a declaration of war on a state leaving the union people in that state are going to die from the war to come. There is no way around that. So it is patriotism to support such an act or is it the opposite? Is patriotism about supporting the liberty of your fellow Americans or supporting the power of the state? You decide. I see nothing honorable about killing people in such an event, but you do apparently.

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    Any attempt at secession would lead by necessity to a civil war. The question then becomes, at what point do political differences justify going to war with your own people?

    It's a tough question. Especially since someone is going to have to fire the first shot.
    I will tell you my point. When they harm my family or me. And not before then. At that point there is NO alternative. Then its all out, balls out, hardcore no quarter expected, no quarter granted, kill em all and dont worry if god sorts em out or not. I sincerly hope it NEVER gets to that point.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyanaprajna2011 View Post
    And I stand by that statement. That doesn't mean that it's not sometimes a necessary evil.
    Now you're playing with semantics. When you say "there is no good reason for secession" then you are stating that it is never necessary.



    I have problems with the way we came about getting this land.
    Same here.

    So no, I don't believe it was a good thing for us to steal land. It's not that much different than what's happening in Palestine.
    Never said anything about whether it was okay to steal land.



    Possibly, and I have my theories on it, but that's not for this thread.
    Agreed.




    While I think anarchism is a great ideal, it's not practical in the long run.
    There are aspects of anarchism I appreciate myself. I like some of Gary Chartier's thoughts on the subject and Fred Foldvary's writings on geoanarchism. However, I don't completely reject government and I understand its place in society. But I digress.

    But that is what I am. This leaves me conflicted with such issues as secession, because on the one hand, I'm sometimes lean toward anarchy, and think that individual rights come before the rights of the state or people, however, on the other hand, I'm not irrational enough to think that I have some sort of special privilege that would allow me to operate in such a fashion, as such, I understand that I have to be a part of the society in which I live. This is why I think that secession is a bad idea, but that would also be dependent on a case by case basis. So, from an individualist point of view, I don't see secession as always being the wrong way, however, as someone trying to be a part of society, I think that it destroys the unity a nation should have to thrive and succeed.
    Remember that while secession doesn't always look pretty it can often make things better for everyone in the long run. I keep bringing up the colonies and England and I'll do it here again: For us to break away from England ended up being for the best for both countries. We have trade, alliance, and diplomacy. I think if we remained a colony of England things would have remained ugly for many years.

    Although I don't officially call myself a pacifist, I'd say I'm pretty dang close to it. War is ugly to me and almost always unnecessary. I feel the same a lot of times about secession: it can be ugly, and its usually unnecessary. But unlike war, when it happens, its almost always necessary.



    Short answer, it is what it is. They had their reasons, and whether it was good or bad, it's the way things are. I think more diplomatic actions could have been taken to avoid such a mess, but I also don't have any clear cut answers as to how that would have taken shape.
    I think the majority of both sides would have preferred to have seen a peaceful resolution to the conflict. But what we do know for sure is we did secede and I think we came out better for it.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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  7. #67
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    So you are right it would be in disagreement with collectivism, but how could it also be opposed to individualism?
    Because the whole reason why they're seceding is that the rest of the US won't agree with them, think like them, act like them, believe like them. They want everyone to be the exact same. They don't support freedom of speech, religion, or everyone's right to disagree with each other.
    "To do good, to avoid evil, and to purify the mind, this is the teaching of all Buddhas." -the Buddha, from the Dhammapada

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Did you miss the part about the dictatorship?
    No, I saw that part.

    A dictatorship would mean that some faction overtook the US Government and the US is no longer and a new country has replaced it.
    So Germany was no longer Germany when Hitler took over?


    I have no problem violent ousting the new country that violently took over America. Because face it the only that is happening in through violence.
    I have no problem with violent overthrow of a dictator if its necessary. But I also don't mind secession if overthrow doesn't work out (and yes, I am aware that the dictator would probably go to war over it).
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  9. #69
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yes



    Everything I said happened in the civil war.



    Did I even mention this at all? Still, regardless of how it came about if the federal government issues a declaration of war on a state leaving the union people in that state are going to die from the war to come. There is no way around that. So it is patriotism to support such an act or is it the opposite? Is patriotism about supporting the liberty of your fellow Americans or supporting the power of the state? You decide. I see nothing honorable about killing people in such an event, but you do apparently.
    Thanx for your strawman response. BTW I made it clear that it would not be the Government vs the people of said state, I said that it would be the people vs the corrupt faction that took over said state. If such a thing happened in my state I would happily welcome the US Governments help in destroying the faction that thought that they could take over this state.

    And quit blatantly putting words in my mouth. Or keep it up actually and show everyone here just what kind of debater that you are.

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    No, I saw that part.
    Really then why didnt you seem to address that?



    So Germany was no longer Germany when Hitler took over?
    Bingo!




    I have no problem with violent overthrow of a dictator if its necessary. But I also don't mind secession if overthrow doesn't work out (and yes, I am aware that the dictator would probably go to war over it).
    Lol what makes you think that one state would fight against a dictatorship independently as if they were a separate nation? Do you even live in America?

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