View Poll Results: Could secession ever be appropriate?

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  • Secession could possibly be acceptable

    69 70.41%
  • Secession is never acceptable

    29 29.59%
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Thread: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

  1. #91
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Thank you for your opinion though it did not do a damn thing.
    I did not expect it to.


    The South tried to become of a separate nation but in the end failed.
    They failed but saw themselves as a separate nation between 1860 through 1865. As stated before, the North and most of the rest of the world did not see them as separate, but it depends on who you ask. One thing is for sure, the US was not unified at that time.

    And since you are asserting the creation of a new nation on the land of the old nation. Then you should not deny that secession is a provocative move.
    Did I say secession isn't a provocative move?

    Its like walking on to someone elses land and squatting demanding that they give it to them.
    No, not the same thing. Those who secede are not invaders/trespassers. They are mostly people who have lived in the country/state for their entire lives and have a long lineage of American blood.


    I dont care what cracker jack box that you got your education out of.
    Let's leave the personal insults out of it, okay?

    My point was that Americans do not want this country to balkinize and will not stand for it especially from small factions.
    I agree they don't. And I already made clear I won't support any moves towards secession unless under extreme circumstances.

    This is really a non-issue drummed up by radicals that have realized that they could never get the support of the entire nation. So they figure then that it would be easier to just get a portion of American land for their endeavors. But they are not smart enough to realize that they couldnt even convince a county to secede.
    Its just a minority who are having a tantrum over the election. It will subside. However, you seem to be under the impression that I support these folks.
    Last edited by Geoist; 11-17-12 at 12:39 AM.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I did not expect it to.
    Then it would have better to be economical then.




    T
    hey failed but saw themselves as a separate nation between 1860 through 1865. As stated before, the North and most of the rest of the world did not see them as separate, but it depends on who you ask. One thing is for sure, the US was not unified at that time.
    SOme malitia people thought that they seceded their property from the union as well, but in reality they had not. But I agree that the US was no unified during the Civil War. lol



    Did I say secession isn't a provocative move?
    Probably not but I was making the point that a secession would not be a peaceful endeavor. I was also trying to point out that there are many different causes of civil war, an attempted secession is just one of them.



    No, not the same thing. Those who secede are not invaders/trespassers. They are mostly people who have lived in the country/state for their entire lives and have a long lineage of American blood.
    Once Americans cross that line they no longer Americans unless they are seceding to leave a government that replaced the US Government but thats an entirely different ordeal.



    Let's leave the personal insults out of it, okay?
    It was not a insult, at least not anymore than your nationalist accusation: Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.



    I agree they don't. And I already made clear I won't support any moves towards secession unless under extreme circumstances.
    My point again is that the extreme circumstances take the idea of seceding to a different level since the state would not be seceding from the US but from a new government that replaced the US. But in that case I do not see a single state seceding from the new Government but all of them in unison while we prepared for Civil War.



    Its just a minority who are having a tantrum over the election. It will subside. However, you seem to be under the impression that I support these folks.
    Take notice that I did not say you but said they.

    My point is that there is no legitimate reason to secede from the union. The only secession that is valid is if we were seceding from a new government. Anything less than that is counterproductive to the attempt to stop those responsible.

  3. #93
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Probably not but I was making the point that a secession would not be a peaceful endeavor. I was also trying to point out that there are many different causes of civil war, an attempted secession is just one of them.
    Well I agree on that. And an attempt at secession, whether justified or not, would most likely end in failure either politically or militarily. Where I think we disagree on is whether it is ever justified under a "republican" government.



    Once Americans cross that line they no longer Americans
    The whole purpose of seceding is to end citizenship to the US so I'm sure that point is not lost on them.


    unless they are seceding to leave a government that replaced the US Government but thats an entirely different ordeal.
    I disagree on the idea that it would have to take a sudden coupe of the US government to have justified secession. I could see a situation where over several decades the "republic" becomes so corrupted and power so centralized that some of the citizenry decides enough is enough and secedes. But for me, it would have to get pretty bad.

    Unfortunately, I think Thomas Jefferson was right when he said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."


    It was not a insult, at least not anymore than your nationalist accusation: Nationalist-speak usually does not go along with reason.
    That comment was actually directed more towards the people you referred to who will not tolerate secession. Some may use logic on the issue, but nationalism is so ingrained in some people that it would replace all rational thinking.




    Take notice that I did not say you but said they.
    Well glad at least that is clear.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    A State cannot vote itself out of the union without declaring war on the US.
    I'm guessing you are basing this on Texas v. White?

    Again the act of secession is an declaration of war on the US. And would be treated as such. Secession is just a pipe dream of people who have no clue of what they are talking about. But secession make good fodder for the militia types.
    To be perfectly honest the people that support it being called illegal have no idea what they are talking about. Regardless, nationalism is generally useless.

  5. #95
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    the problem would be the obvious one. Who gets what? The Jesus map is a farce of some demented Limbaugh fan.

    Each group would have to have access to the Atlantic and Pacific, the Mississippi, deep water ports, the food belt and industry.

    How would the people be moved who wanted to leave. Be compensated for thier loss of job, business or property? Would busineses corporations and industry just suddenly pack up and move?

    How would the military be divided? How would short range and medium range nukes be handled. Treaty. What if one group said no?

    Government files, agencies, international organizations, companies, infrastructure?

    If you think its as easy as drawing a line in the sand think real hard and then think again.
    That is a most excellent answer! The people who talk about secession are only concerned for themselves and fail to think beyond their own emotions. There is more talk about secession now because the people who think that way are racists who are intolerant about a president who is biracial. We only have to look at some places like the Balkans and the problems they have there and perhaps these secessionist folks will give it a second thought provided they have the wisdom to think.

    A poll taken shows that they all want to secede because we have a biracial president.

  6. #96
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate View Post
    I think the principle of succession is good, it keeps an extra check on the federal government and allows states a way to defend themselves against corruption. At this point the federal government has consistently violated so many civil liberties as to render itself illegitimate. It may be to the point that only a mass movement of the states can reduce and reform the corrupted federal government.

    Right now, in my opinion, we need to promote and defend states rights and the principles of federalism against the rising trend of authoritarianism in government.
    So you do not believe there is corruption in state governments? What the f*** are you talking about? Look at states such as Florida, Ohio, Alabama, Mississippi. These states have violated civil liberties. So what the f*** are you talking about?

  7. #97
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I don't see a possible scenario where secession won't lead to war. Our nation is interdependent and connected, and if part of that whole were to suddenly disappear from the greater machine, it will create economic disaster. We will either fight to keep ourselves one nation, or fight over the resources that are suddenly held by a neighboring nation that is, by its very design, hostile to our interests. If you want to destroy this country, embroiling it in a second civil war would be the quickest way to do it.
    So who are these people who talk about secession?

  8. #98
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glowpun View Post
    A poll taken shows that they all want to secede because we have a biracial president.
    I'm curious to see that poll.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  9. #99
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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glowpun View Post
    That is a most excellent answer! The people who talk about secession are only concerned for themselves and fail to think beyond their own emotions. There is more talk about secession now because the people who think that way are racists who are intolerant about a president who is biracial. We only have to look at some places like the Balkans and the problems they have there and perhaps these secessionist folks will give it a second thought provided they have the wisdom to think.

    A poll taken shows that they all want to secede because we have a biracial president.
    I must have struck a nerve or something. I have never gotten this many likes on a post since I've been here.

    Actually. I spend some of my time writing 'stories" about things I am interested in so I can see how they work out in my mind. I wrote one about this subject but I don't share it with people because its very primitive.

    The complications of this subject are just staggering. Back in CW days with only 40 million people this was a very doable thing. Today with 300+ not even in your dreams.

    If Texas is the main force behind this then let them go back to Mexico and se how they like it there compared to here. All talk no brains.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

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    Re: Would you oppose secession for ANY reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate View Post
    I think the principle of succession is good, it keeps an extra check on the federal government and allows states a way to defend themselves against corruption. At this point the federal government has consistently violated so many civil liberties as to render itself illegitimate. It may be to the point that only a mass movement of the states can reduce and reform the corrupted federal government.

    Right now, in my opinion, we need to promote and defend states rights and the principles of federalism against the rising trend of authoritarianism in government.
    Oh. The state, or even a portion of a state, could succeeded, and could become a Mormon country. That would sure correct the "authoritarianism in government". Oh, btw, we have had that in Northern Arizona for years. It sure is neat there. Especially if you are a man with authority.
    Last edited by OhIsee.Then; 11-17-12 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Had to add a comment.

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