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Thread: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You are welcome to use that definition, but it is not the general definition used by moth people Bombing a building during war is not terrorism for example.
    Bombing a building in or out of war usually IS terrorism, because the normal predictable result of bombing a building is hurting or killing people (hence it qualifies as violence);

    and

    it is nearly always done in order to influence others (i.e. attempt to get enemy forces out of an area, weaken a strategic position, etc.)

    and

    as I already pointed out, there is no logical warrant for giving a magical exemption to governments and their agents (like militaries).


    For painfully obvious reasons, official LEGAL definitions of terrorism are and continue to be tailored so as to avoid self-incrimination (those acting on behalf of governments AVOID setting up laws which would lead to identifying the state as having committed a criminal offense).

    Once you remove the magical self-granted exemption from typical legal definitions, it becomes consistent and reasonable.

    The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, are archetypal cases of terrorism: they are massive incidences of planned violence carried out for the sake of attempting to influence the policy and conduct of others in a clear conflict (i.e. get the Japanese military/government to surrender).
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Bombing a building in or out of war usually IS terrorism, because the normal predictable result of bombing a building is hurting or killing people (hence it qualifies as violence);

    and

    it is nearly always done in order to influence others (i.e. attempt to get enemy forces out of an area, weaken a strategic position, etc.)

    and

    as I already pointed out, there is no logical warrant for giving a magical exemption to governments and their agents (like militaries).


    For painfully obvious reasons, official LEGAL definitions of terrorism are and continue to be tailored so as to avoid self-incrimination (those acting on behalf of governments AVOID setting up laws which would lead to identifying the state as having committed a criminal offense).

    Once you remove the magical self-granted exemption from typical legal definitions, it becomes consistent and reasonable.

    The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, are archetypal cases of terrorism: they are massive incidences of planned violence carried out for the sake of attempting to influence the policy and conduct of others in a clear conflict (i.e. get the Japanese military/government to surrender).
    All violence is not terrorism. While you are welcome to make up your own definition, the word as it is used legally and by most people does not include lawful acts and does not include violence for reasons outside of political coercion or intimidation.
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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    In this country, private property is private property, and it belongs to the owner, unless he/she has neglected to pay property taxes. And no, environmentalists who commit violence and destruction are no better than any other thug.
    So, isn't it a viable business model, to hire a few (environmentalist/animalrights) thugs to create disturbance before you buy up something, to lower its price? After all, those thugs wouldn't exist in the first place, if the existence of that property was just.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    No all acts of sabotage for political coercion is terrorism, but many of the acts groups like ALF most certainly are. Among acts I would consider terrorist acts by this type of group was burning down homes under construction, bombing/burning down a ski lodge, bombing science labs, letting disease-infested animals loose into the human populace, that kind of thing.

    Throwing paint on a fur coat, although a dick thing to do, does not rise to "terroristic intent" in my opinion.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    All violence is not terrorism.
    I never said all violence is terrorism. See, I include words in my sentences for a reason; their combination in a particular order affects meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    While you are welcome to make up your own definition, the word as it is used legally
    Did you completely miss my acknowledgement of the ulterior motives behind legal definitions, and their typical (completely unwarranted) exemption for state actors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    and by most people does not include lawful acts and does not include violence for reasons outside of political coercion or intimidation.
    Acceptance of the magical exemption for state actors (which is, let's be clear, exactly what the "lawful" vs. "unlawful" clause in legal definitions is intended to achieve) leads to the completely untenable contradiction which holds that:

    a man putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out if you don't move out of town/vote the way he wants you to/start (or stop) doing X action IS terrorism (CORRECT)

    BUT... (magically)...

    a police officer or soldier putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out if you don't move out of town/vote the way he wants you to/start (or stop) doing X action IS NOT terrorism (absurd on its face)
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    I never said all violence is terrorism. See, I include words in my sentences for a reason; their combination in a particular order affects meaning.



    Did you completely miss my acknowledgement of the ulterior motives behind legal definitions, and their typical (completely unwarranted) exemption for state actors?



    Acceptance of the magical exemption for state actors (which is, let's be clear, exactly what the "lawful" vs. "unlawful" clause in legal definitions is intended to achieve) leads to the completely untenable contradiction which holds that:

    a man putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out if you don't move out of town/vote the way he wants you to/start (or stop) doing X action IS terrorism (CORRECT)

    BUT... (magically)...

    a police officer or soldier putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out if you don't move out of town/vote the way he wants you to/start (or stop) doing X action IS NOT terrorism (absurd on its face)
    There is no exemption for state actors. They are bound by laws too. The ebil gubment is only a criminal when it breaks laws....
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    I reject the premise that property destruction is automatically violence. In the vast majority of cases it typically is, because it predictably leads to harming a person or other animal capable of being hurt...but not automatically. Critically disabling a nuclear missile or an arms factory while going to great lengths to avoid physically harming personnel, for example, demonstrates an explicit organized effort to AVOID injury. Such would still be coercive, but not necessarily violent.

    Calling in a bomb threat with instructions to clear a building -- while NOT actually planting a bomb -- would of course be terrorism due to the reliance upon fear as a means of manipulating the actions of the targets.

    Planting a bomb WITHOUT warning and with no measures to clear the building of people and/or animals capable of being harmed would be terrorism as well, due to the reliance upon the aftermath of the detonation as a means of seeking change through direct harm.
    You are free to reject whatever you want, but legally disabling a nuclear power plant or missile or arms factory is still terrorism if you are doing it to bring about a social or political change. It doesn't even matter how you go about doing it as long as it is violent or causes some fear in those within the society. Just as critically disabling the power plants of a country is still an act of terrorism even if not a single person dies or is harmed by a result of the act if it is done for a reason meant to bring about social or political change. No one has to be harmed for it to be an act of terrorism.
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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    To sum up:

    The resultant conclusion of a logically consistent definition of terrorism is that terrorism is actually quite common.

    The only way to carve a path around state violence in order to keep it outside of a definition of terrorism (for the sake of political convenience and/or catering to cognitive dissonance) is to commit a form of ideational gerrymandering/special pleading.

    Logical and consistent application of a reasonable definition of terrorism points clearly to the observation that governments and their agents account for the lion's share of terrorism.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is no exemption for state actors. They are bound by laws too. The ebil gubment is only a criminal when it breaks laws....
    Bull****.

    CIVILIAN blows up building to scare people and influence their behavior vis-a-vis a political goal? Terrorism.
    SOLDIER (i.e. military pilot) blows up building to scare people and influence their behavior vis-a-vis a political goal? STILL terrorism.

    If you assert the latter is not terrorism because the bombing was ordered by someone within a government (and therefore legal), that's a glaring, neon-sign, bash-you-over-the-head magical exemption.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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    Re: Is violence committed by militant Eco or Animal Rights groups acts of terrorism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Bull****.

    CIVILIAN blows up building to scare people and influence their behavior vis-a-vis a political goal? Terrorism.
    SOLDIER (i.e. military pilot) blows up building to scare people and influence their behavior vis-a-vis a political goal? STILL terrorism.

    If you assert the latter is not terrorism because the bombing was ordered by someone within a government (and therefore legal), that's a glaring, neon-sign, bash-you-over-the-head magical exemption.
    So in your world two different situations must be the same?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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