View Poll Results: at what point do you no longer accept the premise that we have to raise the debt ceil

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  • $10T ago

    6 40.00%
  • $5T ago

    1 6.67%
  • now

    2 13.33%
  • $20T

    0 0%
  • $25T

    1 6.67%
  • $30T

    0 0%
  • $40T

    0 0%
  • $50T

    1 6.67%
  • Never!

    4 26.67%
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Thread: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

  1. #41
    Politically Correct

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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    Ah. More fearmongering.
    Compared to the collapse that runaway debt - your preferred solution - will bring, any economic impact of not lifting the debt ceiling will look like a day at the beach.
    No, the impact would be about the same -- complete economic collapse. We are in so deep at this point that a few extra years and a few trillion more dollars is not going to add in degree to the eventual collapse. Especially since, if there were to be a complete depression, that money is not going to be repaid anyway, so it doesn't matter how much there is. Which is why I don't see the need to trigger a meltdown today if we can take action today to avoid one in the future.


    Really?
    What's -your- debt ceiling limit, and why?
    If it wasn't clear enough the first time, I don't believe there should be any arbitrary and inflexible limit on how much can be borrowed. If borrowing is cut off late, when the debt is already massive, it only accelerates the very problems it aims to avoid. If borrowing is cut off early, it can prevent the government from taking necessary action during an emergency and thus cause similar problems to the ones it aims to prevent.

    The debt ceiling is only useful as a red flag to legislators, the markets and to the people. It should never actually be invoked.

    If you think that position is incompatible with the idea that we need to balance our budgets and pay down the debt in a responsible way, I don't think you are able to appreciate nuance enough to be suggesting any solutions to our mountainous fiscal issues. The debt is the problem. The debt ceiling is, at best, an ineffective and potentially dangerous tool. You can agree that a problem is serious while disagreeing that a tool is the appropriate mechanism with which to fix it.
    Last edited by Cameron; 11-14-12 at 03:29 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  2. #42
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    No, the impact would be about the same -- complete economic collapse. We are in so deep at this point that a few extra years and a few trillion more dollars is not going to add in degree to the eventual collapse. Especially since, if there were to be a complete depression, that money is not going to be repaid anyway, so it doesn't matter how much there is. Which is why I don't see the need to trigger a meltdown today if we can take action today to avoid one in the future.
    What indication do you have that this will ever happen?
    Absent any clear and sound indication, why do you then commit yourself to the endless accumulation of dent, regardless of the effect?

  3. #43
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    But, they can be, especially for things like aircraft. It was supposed that cancellation was not an option, when it is.


    -I- know that. The claim was made that "decreasing the deficit DECREASES GDP".


    So, to reduce the decfcit, by whatever means, you have to reduce GDP?
    I think we both know here are example in recent hiostory where the deficits went down and the GDP went up. Please explain this.
    We're not going to agree on the first part.

    For the second, you hit on the key to the entire discussion with the phrase "by whatever means".

    First, lets look and see what happens in a vacuum. Say we have a government with zero debt, zero deficit, and zero GDP growth. Now, using the most simplistic assumptions possible, lets assume that the government decides to increase spending by 2% of GDP for one year. This means that GDP increases by 2%, the deficit is 2% gdp and the debt is 2% gdp.

    On the other hand, if we visit this country the next year, and cut spending or increase taxes to reduce the deficit by 2% gdp, then we're also going to reduce the gdp from 2% from the year before.

    Now, we're just using very simplistic psuedo-static assumptions about the way the economy works. But we really can't divorce spending from it's effects, especially since deficits are essentially increased gdp growth now for reduced gdp growth later. Much like business and personal debt, some is good, and some is bad. If you take a loan to buy a house or build infrastructure to reduce your costs, most likely it will pay off in the long run and you'll gain more in revenue than it will cost you in interest. Other investments aren't so good. If you take a loan to buy a fancy new car that depreciates 50% when you drive it off the lot, then you'll most likely be worse off.

    And this is where we get back to "by any means necessary". There is such a thing as good debt. Spending money on infrastructure, research, and public works; things that pay for themselves in the long run are almost by definition good things. Cutting them to close the deficit is almost certainly harmful. Likewise, government spending on things like medicare and other entitlement programs result in a net savings for our economy as a whole, then if we were to stop doing them.

    So... we get back to intelligent decisions. We need to make tough choices, and we need to cut programs that either don't work, or don't work well enough to justify the additional debt. We also need to make tough choices regarding future entitlement spending as well as increasing taxes.

    The conservative approach is to go through this carefully, weighing all of the pro's and con's and making intelligent decisions. The radical approach is to damn the torpedos, full speed ahead, we'll clean up what's left of the economy when the dust settles.

  4. #44
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    For the second, you hit on the key to the entire discussion with the phrase "by whatever means"....
    None of this explains the fact that we have has periods of GDP growth -and- deficit reduction.
    If reducing the deficit necessarily resuts in reduced GDP, as you claim, how can that be?

  5. #45
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    This isn't really a choice. Raising the Debt Ceiling means allowing the government to sell more US Treasury bonds. The debt ceiling has nothing to do with the national debt.

    I think some people view the debt ceiling as a sort of ceiling that we are allowed to spend up to. They think that by not raising the debt ceiling, we're forcing the government to spend within it's means. And that's an understandable mistake, especially since the vote on the debt ceiling is a wholly unnecessary one that exists only for political posturing.

    By raising the debt ceiling we aren't agreeing to future spending, raising the debt ceiling is about agreeing to pay for things we've already spent. Not raising the debt ceiling isn't like cancelling a credit card, it's like declaring bankruptcy.
    This post alone should be stickied on the top of DP. Tired of the politics threatening the safety and reputation of our economy.
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  6. #46
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    This post alone should be stickied on the top of DP.
    Never mind that it is almost all untrue.

  7. #47
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    Never mind that it is almost all untrue.
    care to elaborate? or should i just write off this reply as b.s.?
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  8. #48
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    care to elaborate? or should i just write off this reply as b.s.?
    Look back a couple pages - I address each point.
    It -is- true that raising the debt ceiling allows us to sell more T-bills, but doing so has -everything- to do with the national debt,

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