View Poll Results: at what point do you no longer accept the premise that we have to raise the debt ceil

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • $10T ago

    6 40.00%
  • $5T ago

    1 6.67%
  • now

    2 13.33%
  • $20T

    0 0%
  • $25T

    1 6.67%
  • $30T

    0 0%
  • $40T

    0 0%
  • $50T

    1 6.67%
  • Never!

    4 26.67%
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 48

Thread: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

  1. #31
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 09:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,067

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    That is, at what point do you no longer accept the premise that we have to raise the debt ceiling?
    Please be sure to explain your response.
    The limit should have been the second we got into debt.THere is no reason to go into debt unless is a major natural or man made disaster or if a country declares war on the US and we did not provoke that war.

    Personally I think the clowns in office on both sides of the isle are deliberately dragging us into debt.Maybe to push into some north American union or some other thing to get us to sell our sovereignty out.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  2. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The great lakes
    Last Seen
    06-12-13 @ 02:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,907

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Yes, necessarily so. Taking $1 trillion dollars suddenly from the stream of commerce is going to result in less money being made
    The specific example was government salaries and/or government benifits outays. Yes, the $1T will come from somewhere and mean $1T less into the economy, but not necessarily from either of those things. At some point, the economy will rebalance from this artificial supply of availabe revenue and tax revenue will stabalize.

    As if this entire "don't raise the debt ceiling" debate isn't being propelled by people's fears of rising debt.
    Fear of actual danger is a rational response. Fear of a contrivance is not. You present the latter.

    Unrestrained accumulation of public debt, such as you support, will bring a governmental, economic and societal collapse.

  3. #33
    Politically Correct

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:33 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,850
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    The specific example was government salaries and/or government benifits outays. Yes, the $1T will come from somewhere and mean $1T less into the economy, but not necessarily from either of those things. At some point, the economy will rebalance from this artificial supply of availabe revenue and tax revenue will stabalize.
    So you chose to make some technical point about my examples, to avoid the point, which you now concede. Just to be clear.

    You're right, "at some point" I'm sure the economy would stabilize. It may take a generation lost to poverty. But hey.

    Fear of actual danger is a rational response. Fear of a contrivance is not. You present the latter.
    Me and most reputable economists and business people versus you and Michelle Bachmann. Personally, I think it is far more rational to fear what might happen in the course of a few months as opposed to what may or may not happen a decade or so from now, if lawmakers are unable to take more nuanced and gradual steps to avoid it.

    Unrestrained accumulation of public debt, such as you support, will bring a governmental, economic and societal collapse.
    I don't support unrestrained accumulation of public debt, as discussed in prior posts. That's the strawman you wish you were debating. As I said, I simply don't support the idea that we have to trigger an economic meltdown today to prevent one in the future. Tea Partiers should be thanked for restarting the national dialogue and pressuring the country to take the problem seriously, but this solution is radical and reckless.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  4. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The great lakes
    Last Seen
    06-12-13 @ 02:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,907

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    So you chose to make some technical point about my examples...
    To keep them in context with my response, yes.
    No one disagrees that reducing spending will have an impact on the economy, and so there's nothing to concede to.

    You're right, "at some point" I'm sure the economy would stabilize. It may take a generation lost to poverty. But hey.
    Ah. More fearmongering.
    Compared to the collapse that runaway debt - your preferred solution - will bring, any economic impact of not lifting the debt ceiling will look like a day at the beach.

    I don't support unrestrained accumulation of public debt...
    Really?
    What's -your- debt ceiling limit, and why?

  5. #35
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:48 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    We have no debt, nothing on credit other than we carry some personal line of credit loans backed up by CDs to maintain credit ratings just in case we ever needed it. House, cars, boats everything paid for. My wife briefly had a business to earn her own pocket money and with a very wealthy partner joining in it boomed in business until she shut it down to get the government off her back - putting most of what was earned into offshore accounts via the Bahamas. Otherwise most our savings is in cash, land and collectable firearms.

  6. #36
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,677

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    When is a debt ceiling NOT a debt ceiling?

  7. #37
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:44 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    I agreed that we sell T-bills; it is untrue that doing so is unrelated to the debt.


    Because it is.


    False. Money is spent when the revenue is paid out; the promise or the commitment to spend is not an outlay and is thus not actual spending, because the commitment itself is only an greement to pay. I agree to pay my car loan, but it is not actually paid until I write the check.


    All of this can be nullified thru the legislative process. All of it. The money is not actually spent until the revenue is disbursed


    And you're only going to get 3.

    It all boils down to this:
    Almost every dime spent by the government is spent voluntarily - that is, by choice. As such, none of that spending is mandatory and can therefore be cut.
    The spending that cannot be cut - primarily, debt service - can be covered by revenue, and so there's no way to argue that not raising the debt ceiling results in default
    Outlays are spending. One more time through:

    The government enters into a contract with company A. They agree on a set of deliverables and a payment structure. Those deliverables and the payment structure go onto the books as soon as the agreement is finalized.

    These are contracts. They are legally binding. There is no refuse to pay option. Either the government pays what it owes, (by selling more T-Bills if necessary) or it defaults and declares bankruptcy, and 3 Trillion dollars of our 15T economy goes poof.

    Lockheed Martin is not Walmart. There is no return policy on fighters. There is no layaway option. If you order 10, then you have to pay for 10, even if you only have the money for 3.

    If you want to get the deficit under control you have to attack the root cause, not the symptoms. The problem is that spending exceeds revenue. This causes a deficit which necessitates a debt ceiling increase. The real solution is that future spending needs to go down, while future revenue needs to increase. This needs to be done in a smart predictable way because decreasing the deficit DECREASES GDP.

    It's a tough problem that requires tough choices and intelligent solutions. Spending effort trying to prevent a debt ceiling increase is like a patient thinking that a bullet is the best medicine for a headache.

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The great lakes
    Last Seen
    06-12-13 @ 02:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,907

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Outlays are spending. One more time through:
    The government enters into a contract with company A. They agree on a set of deliverables and a payment structure. Those deliverables and the payment structure go onto the books as soon as the agreement is finalized.
    The money is not spent until the revenue leaves the treasury.


    These are contracts. They are legally binding. There is no refuse to pay option.
    The governemt has a long history of ordering military equipment and then cancelling the contracts - and so, there are, apparemntly, optons other than those you present.

    If you want to get the deficit under control you have to attack the root cause, not the symptoms....It's a tough problem that requires tough choices and intelligent solutions
    What indication do you have that this will ever happen?

    This needs to be done in a smart predictable way because decreasing the deficit DECREASES GDP.
    Incorrect. You MIGHT argue that decressing spending decreased the GDP, but not the deficit.
    I would argue that any economy that depends, as you suggest, on government spendning for its continued health is, in and of itself, unhealty and doomed to fail.

  9. #39
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:44 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,671

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    The money is not spent until the revenue leaves the treasury.



    The governemt has a long history of ordering military equipment and then cancelling the contracts - and so, there are, apparemntly, optons other than those you present.


    What indication do you have that this will ever happen?


    Incorrect. You MIGHT argue that decressing spending decreased the GDP, but not the deficit.
    I would argue that any economy that depends, as you suggest, on government spendning for its continued health is, in and of itself, unhealty and doomed to fail.
    I'm not going to convince you, and I'm not looking to try.

    Having been on contracts that were cancelled, they are seldom if ever cancelled in the middle of a contract period. (And that's because the provider hasn't met the agreed upon metrics). The government might exercise its right to not-renew a contract that is planned to be renewed x times. It doesn't affect work that has already been done, only work that will be done in the future.

    As for GDP, it's calculated as Government Spending + Private Spending - Trade Deficit. You'll notice that there's no mention of budget deficit in the calculation. So if you reduce government spending to reduce the deficit, then you decrease GDP. If you increase revenues then you'll decrease Private Spending and thus will reduce the GDP.

    (This is why everyone is scared of the fiscal cliff.. Going off the cliff means balancing the budget right now).

    Here's a graph to illustrate what I mean. It compares GDP growth with GDP Growth minus the deficit (ie REAL economic growth)
    Last edited by Mithros; 11-14-12 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The great lakes
    Last Seen
    06-12-13 @ 02:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,907

    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Having been on contracts that were cancelled, they are are seldom actually cancelled.
    But, they can be, especially for things like aircraft. It was supposed that cancellation was not an option, when it is.

    As for GDP, it's calculated as Government Spending + Private Spending - Trade Deficit. You'll notice that there's no mention of deficit in the calculation.
    -I- know that. The claim was made that "decreasing the deficit DECREASES GDP".

    So if you reduce government spending to reduce the deficit, then you decrease GDP.
    If you increase revenues then you'll decrease Private Spending and thus will reduce the GDP.
    So, to reduce the decfcit, by whatever means, you have to reduce GDP?
    I think we both know here are example in recent hiostory where the deficits went down and the GDP went up. Please explain this.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •