View Poll Results: at what point do you no longer accept the premise that we have to raise the debt ceil

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  • $10T ago

    6 40.00%
  • $5T ago

    1 6.67%
  • now

    2 13.33%
  • $20T

    0 0%
  • $25T

    1 6.67%
  • $30T

    0 0%
  • $40T

    0 0%
  • $50T

    1 6.67%
  • Never!

    4 26.67%
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Thread: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

  1. #21
    Politically Correct

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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    The only way to avoid a default is use available revenue to pay the debt service. We have -more- than enough revenue to do that.
    Do we? You think our revenue won't be impacted if the government suddenly cuts or stops paying salaries and benefits to turn its attention to servicing the debt? You think consumer demand and corporate profits won't be effected? You think these problems won't trigger mass layoffs in the private market? You think the stock market will not crash upon news that the debt ceiling was not raised?
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  2. #22
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Not raising the debt ceiling alone will not put us in default, but we would have to take money from other programs for making debt payments. I do think there should be a debt ceiling but I would prefer that it not be approached so cavalierly.

  3. #23
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Do we? You think our revenue won't be impacted if the government cuts or stops paying salaries and benefits...
    First, you're presumuing things not in evidence, and assuming cuts that may or may not be made.
    Second - as our revenue is arbout an order of magnitude greater than our debt service, even with those salary cuts, there will be enough.

    But, go on and keep scaring people into believe that the government MUST live totally utterly its means for the country to survive.

  4. #24
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Not raising the debt ceiling alone will not put us in default, but we would have to take money from other programs for making debt payments.
    Well, yes. Spending will need to be cut.
    Not being able to borrow money forces the decsion as to what spending is necessary and what spendng is not.

  5. #25
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    None of this is true.
    -The deficits, and thus, the debt, is financed thru the sale of T-bills. No more T-bills = no wa to run a deficit = no increase in debt.
    -Not raising the debt ceiling does force the government to live within its means because it cannot borrow more money.
    -Not rasing the debt ceiling is not opening a new credit card whenr the others are maxed, and as such is certainly not bankruptcy.
    Interesting. You say that none of this is true and then agree that the debt is financed through the sale of T-Bills.. Which is pretty much exactly what I said in my first statement.

    As to the rest of it, you're just reiterating what I described as the incorrect, but understandably prevalent view of the debt ceiling with an additional "NUH UH".

    Money is spent when the commitment is made to exchange funds for services, not when the actual money changes hands. In the case of personal finances, the commitment is almost always only made after money changes hands. Government and businesses on the other hand work in a much more structured budgetary environment. Money is spent in the budgetary process, not when the actual dollars change hands.

    If you've ever dealt with the government or a large business you've seen this first hand. You win a contract to provide goods or services for the large entity. Legal agreements are drawn up and both sides budget accordingly. So while the actual money may transfer at some other point, the spending shows up on the books when the agreement is made. There are no consumer protections at this level, the government can't simply "return" a fighter that they don't want to pay for.

    Not raising the debt ceiling means that the government refuses to pay what it is already legally contracted to pay without first renegotiating the contracts. The mistaken view is that this is like saying, Well I was planning on buying 10 F-35's but now I can only afford 3, so I'll just buy 3. Instead, this is like saying I ordered 10 F35's, but now I'm only going to pay for 3.

    That's why the best analogy for raising the debt ceiling is to agree to pay your credit card statement rather than applying for a credit increase.

  6. #26
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    dont spend money you dont have.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  7. #27
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Interesting. You say that none of this is true and then agree that the debt is financed through the sale of T-Bills.. Which is pretty much exactly what I said in my first statement.
    I agreed that we sell T-bills; it is untrue that doing so is unrelated to the debt.

    As to the rest of it, you're just reiterating what I described as the incorrect,...
    Because it is.

    Money is spent when the commitment is made to exchange funds for services, not when the actual money changes hands.
    False. Money is spent when the revenue is paid out; the promise or the commitment to spend is not an outlay and is thus not actual spending, because the commitment itself is only an greement to pay. I agree to pay my car loan, but it is not actually paid until I write the check.

    If you've ever dealt with the government or a large business you've seen this first hand. You win a contract to provide goods or services for the large entity. Legal agreements are drawn up and both sides budget accordingly.
    All of this can be nullified thru the legislative process. All of it. The money is not actually spent until the revenue is disbursed

    Instead, this is like saying I ordered 10 F35's, but now I'm only going to pay for 3.
    And you're only going to get 3.

    It all boils down to this:
    Almost every dime spent by the government is spent voluntarily - that is, by choice. As such, none of that spending is mandatory and can therefore be cut.
    The spending that cannot be cut - primarily, debt service - can be covered by revenue, and so there's no way to argue that not raising the debt ceiling results in default

  8. #28
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    First, you're presumuing things not in evidence, and assuming cuts that may or may not be made.
    How is that a presumption? We are running a deficit, meaning our costs exceed our revenue. If we are no longer able to borrow money to make up the difference, the only way to avoid default is to cut a trillion dollars worth of costs. Those cuts will have dramatic consequences moving forward on federal revenue.

    Second - as our revenue is arbout an order of magnitude greater than our debt service, even with those salary cuts, there will be enough.
    How much greater is it? Can it absorb a 25% drop in revenue, as occurred in 2009? What about a 60% drop in revenue, as occurred during the Great Depression? How much money will we have left over to pay for the military or for anything else that needs to be done?

    But, go on and keep scaring people into believe that the government MUST live totally utterly its means for the country to survive.
    People should be scared. Not raising the debt ceiling would be one of the most irresponsible fiscal decisions this country has ever made.

    Assuming you intended to write "utterly beyond its means" above, I do not dispute that we cannot go on living beyond our means. I just don't think we need to send the country into a depression today to prevent a depression in the future. If we take action on the deficit and spread out cuts over a number of years, as both parties agree we need to do, we can ride out the problem, not comfortably, but perhaps without crashing our economy in the process.
    Last edited by Cameron; 11-14-12 at 01:46 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  9. #29
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    How is that a presumption? We are running a deficit, meaning our costs exceed our revenue. If we are no longer able to borrow money to make up the difference, the only way to avoid default is to cut a trillion dollars worth of costs. Those cuts will have dramatic consequences moving forward on federal revenue.
    But, none of those cuts are, necessarily, benefits or salaries or workforce. They MIGHT be, but not necessarily so.

    How much greater is it?
    As I said: Nearly an order of magnitude - that is, nearly 10x.

    People should be scared.
    Good to see that you'll admt to scaring people in order to maintain your positical agenda.

  10. #30
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    Re: What's YOUR debt ceiling limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    But, none of those cuts are, necessarily, benefits or salaries or workforce. They MIGHT be, but not necessarily so.
    Yes, necessarily so. Taking $1 trillion dollars suddenly from the stream of commerce is going to result in less money being made . . . be it by federal employees or by federal consumers. Even if the cuts come from, say, investment in technology or military planes, as opposed to from the payroll of the Department of Defense, that means technology and military jobs or income that is being cut.

    Then, when the federal government has less revenue next year, it will mean more cuts so it can keep on servicing the debt. And the private sector will cut. And the federal government will cut. Until that order of magnitude you speak of has vanished.

    Good to see that you'll admt to scaring people in order to maintain your positical agenda.
    As if this entire "don't raise the debt ceiling" debate isn't being propelled by people's fears of rising debt. This is a silly retort.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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