The most obvious parental neglect: should a parent forget to CHOOSE?

Pinkie said:

I don't think any parent should attempt to arrange a romance for their child, at any age. But with young ones, kids that are not yet adults (or even some that are), a parent should discourage a romance that seems abusive: isolating, verbally abusive, or God forbid, physically abusive.

Doing so can be the most formidable challenge any parent will ever face -- anyone in such a horrible position should seek professional guidance, IMO.

Meanwhile, a child (or young adult) who shows no interest in romance may just be especially independent, introverted, etc. and unless they seem unhappy, I'd not recommend interfering.

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I used to have zero interest (although I am not introverted too much), but that is not sustainable, your own classmates will seek you out before any authority such as a parent gets a clue. As a rule, parents get no visibility, and most people PRETEND zero interest to keep the parents at bay. In contrast to zero interest, I would like to propose a minimum finite interest theory, where the minimum level is completely determined by the class-mates.

Pinkie said:

I wonder about the marriages in cultures where the parents arrange them -- are the partners happy? Do they divorce as readily as we do, and if not, is it because women have fewer rights?

Whatever the case may be, choosing my own kid's spouse is a repugnant idea to me.

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Repugnant is a very strong word. I don't think anyone in school would reject someone brought by parents unless the parents are embarrassingly rejectionable themselves.

The arranged marriages that I know could go into 2 categories. The first one is where the parents were raising people, and those marriages turn out fine, from what I could see. The second one is where the parents raise something to satisfy themselves, and those marriages carry abuse to the point of (well constructed) murder.

ab9924 said:

Very interesting, I didn't even know that there is such a thing as premarital counseling.

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Yes, there is. My pastor sat us down before we got married and asked us to write down our goals for 2,5, and 10 years. Some things matches up, the things that didn't we compromised on then and there, they also go over conflict resolution. Our pastor had us read some Scripture together and we put together a few guidelines not to cross, such as we don't spank our children and I keep our budget because my husband is a bit spend crazy. Its a great start for a good marriage.

ab9924 said:

This is interesting. I think I have already accepted her, although I don't know how to get ready for this kind of thing. This is not really a religious arrangement, although the people that directly interface to me are from the church. This may not even have been in the plan script either.

I must wonder ... even with all the excellent times I had with all the girls who picked me, how far can a game go? Tonight, I will go out with someone from Ethiopia, she switched me over to liking black (brown/red) skinned girls, but that's a game too. I hold all my girlfriends (ex or not) in high esteem, but still ... it all is a game. I don't know for sure, but if people marry like that, then I must speculate the logic, that their marriages are a game only too, as well as their children are games only too.

I am not interested in marriage, but I am very interested in finding out if there is anything on Earth beyond the games. (Also, I don't think I would be approved to marry someone who is not white, but I plan to fight this convention with everything I can invent, after I am 18.)

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Honey, you're not yet 18 -- far too young to worry about who you should marry.

Marriage and children are no game, but I can tell you exactly why my marriage failed: I had graduated from college, and felt this enormous peer pressure to marry ASAP, so I did. Fulfilling someone else's expectations for your life is a recipe for misery.

Your job is to be healthy, curious, respectful, open, awed, outraged, alive -- to be a kid on the verge of adulthood. This is a precious time in your life.

Don't let anyone steal your joy.

ab9924 said:

I used to have zero interest (although I am not introverted too much), but that is not sustainable, your own classmates will seek you out before any authority such as a parent gets a clue. As a rule, parents get no visibility, and most people PRETEND zero interest to keep the parents at bay. In contrast to zero interest, I would like to propose a minimum finite interest theory, where the minimum level is completely determined by the class-mates.



Repugnant is a very strong word. I don't think anyone in school would reject someone brought by parents unless the parents are embarrassingly rejectionable themselves.

The arranged marriages that I know could go into 2 categories. The first one is where the parents were raising people, and those marriages turn out fine, from what I could see. The second one is where the parents raise something to satisfy themselves, and those marriages carry abuse to the point of (well constructed) murder.

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Ab9926, this is not how I live. It's not how anyone I've ever met has lived. Please don't make choices you can't undo before you have a chance to discover what all your options may be.

People greatly under-estimate the effect marriage has on their life. That is a person who is going to be there morning, noon and night. A person you communication with more than all other people combined. There is no substantive decision you can make without the other person. Every major economic decision. Likely, you will have to account for ever hour of your time to that person. And all that is forever.

joko104 said:

With the added benefit of doing nothing is the easiest parenting at all, huh?

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It is entirely different than doing nothing.

ab9924 said:

From the other threads, it became obvious that parents want their children to be ... successful, profitable, respected, achieving, to be proud of, and so on, ... except one thing: valuable/worth.

It is our families that formulate what we are and how much we are worth to others. So, the question is, why do the parents abandone their children after they formulated their children for themselves?

Shouldn't parents take a pass/fail exam like kids do? For example, how about a parent doing what all parents used to do, that is to formulate the child to be of WORTH to someone, and then verify their parenting by asking another family if their child is WORTH to join that child?

Parents don't care about their children, they only pretend that they care, otherwise they would put their own worth on the line to find the 1st serious GF/BF or wife/husband. If that works, at least parents would know that their lives were worth something too. But no parent does this any more, because they know that they themselves are worthless.

So what's your take? Should you test your own worth by proving that your kid is worth to someone who is of worth to your kid too, or don't bother?

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I feel like you were trying to say something but I am not exactly sure what it is? Perhaps there is a cultural gap?

Pinkie said:

I wonder about the marriages in cultures where the parents arrange them -- are the partners happy? Do they divorce as readily as we do, and if not, is it because women have fewer rights?

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My wife’s grandfather and grandmother had an arranged marriage. She died several years before he did. Near the end of his time he was living with and being taken care of by my wife’s parents, in a different country. He was asked if he would like to be returned to his country of birth to be buried next to his wife. His response (translated to English): “I want to be as far from that woman as possible.” He also talked about a woman from his village that he knew prior that he wished he could have married instead.

They had loathed each other from very early on, if there was ever any affection. There was infidelity, ultimately, as well is my understanding. But they were married for several decades till death gave them reprieve, old school style. *shrug*

If it rocks someone’s groove to have their parents pick out a mate for them? *meh* Have fun, I suppose. But I trust my children to have enough ‘worth’ to know what they want. I certainly do not have the tyrannical streak in me to dictate their choices.

If they are not of maturity enough to make the choice of mate themselves then they aren’t of maturity enough to have one.

ab9924 said:

From the other threads, it became obvious that parents want their children to be ... successful, profitable, respected, achieving, to be proud of, and so on, ... except one thing: valuable/worth.

It is our families that formulate what we are and how much we are worth to others. So, the question is, why do the parents abandone their children after they formulated their children for themselves?

Shouldn't parents take a pass/fail exam like kids do? For example, how about a parent doing what all parents used to do, that is to formulate the child to be of WORTH to someone, and then verify their parenting by asking another family if their child is WORTH to join that child?

Parents don't care about their children, they only pretend that they care, otherwise they would put their own worth on the line to find the 1st serious GF/BF or wife/husband. If that works, at least parents would know that their lives were worth something too. But no parent does this any more, because they know that they themselves are worthless.

So what's your take? Should you test your own worth by proving that your kid is worth to someone who is of worth to your kid too, or don't bother?

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Okay, item one: you are not qualified to speak in such a harshly judgemental manner about other people's parenting, because you are not a parent nor even adult yet and you have a hell of a lot to learn still.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to an opinion. I'm question the worth of that opinion in the absence of anything remotely like experience. No offense but yeah, that's the size of it. There are things about parenting that you will not understand until you are one.

ab9924 said:

My parents can't participate in my life, but they assembled the plan of it and I am run accordingly until 18. I don't know how it was arranged, but the trustees arranged a GF for me who will travel to join me at the end of this month. I think the guys at the church told them that I had too many GF's or too few, or that I was gay (which I am not), or something. She and I skype now a lot, first I was not really thrilled by this arrangement, but now I like her a lot, and the trustees may have been very well right. That is, that the best person for you is who is brought to you by the people who made a person out of you too. (Although I think you may be right, if there was no program to formulate a person out of you to begin with, in which case you are indeed on your own, as you describe it.)

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Item two: You need to realize that because of the way you have lived and are being raised by trustees, that your understanding of typical families and parents is limited. I'm not saying you're ignorant, I'm saying your life experiences have been very, VERY different than what is typical for most people... so again, you need to stop being so judgemental.

Now, with that out of the way... it is not the custom in the US for parents to pick their children's GF or wife. Most teenagers in the US would not stand for it. Many will "have a hissy fit" at the SLIGHTEST HINT of intereference in their choices in that regard, at least if they're much past 15.

Having said THAT... I'm not entirely sure that we as a society should have thrown out the concept of parental input into who the child marries quite so thoroughly. A method commonly used by well-to-do households up until the later 20th c was to select several suitable bachelors and let the daughter choose from among them whom she liked best. Sons often had more lattitude, but were expected to listen to parental input on who they married... especially if they wanted to remain part of the family financial structure and get an inheritance.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. Letting an inexperienced, hormone-laden 16-18yo choose a life-mate without any parental input often leads to bad choices being made.... OTOH, forcing a chosen suitor on a young person, if they don't want to be with that person, can also ruin a marriage before it gets started.

As I said, for a couple generations now (at least), American teens and young adults have been (for the most part) vehemently opposed to parental interference in their love life. One adage for fathers was "Pick out the young man you think is perfect for your daughter, then FORBID her to see him! They'll be married in six months." :mrgreen:

Considering that the former system of family-based business and finance, and of dowery and bride-price, are no longer commonplace, the leverage a parent has on their young-adult child's choices in this regard are very limited.

Now having said all THAT... I think it is a wise young person who listens to their parent's advice on dating/marriage and at least gives it careful consideration (assuming the parents are sensible people with the best interests of their children at heart).

My son and I have a very close relationship; even though he is 16 we talk about EVERYTHING, including his romantic involvements. I do NOT dictate to him who he may date, (at least I haven't had to so far, he has not picked anyone really terrible), but I do offer a willing ear as well as counsel and advice with a lifetime's experience backing it... and here's the unusual part: he actually listens to me, and usually takes my advice.

To have that kind of relationship as parent of an American teenager, you have to have a longstanding and oft-proven relationship of trust and mutual respect, earned the hard way.

In other words, I think you're framing this argument in a much too extreme fashion, and failing to take into account the real world that most people inhabit.

However, if there is a good and trusting relationship between parents and their adult or near-adult child, I think it is good to have some parental involvement in the process.

ab9924 said:

Your post is so interesting and amazing ... most of all enigmatic. What is it like to "stand successfully on my own two feet"? Don't you need the people in your house and the network of advisors and associates to exist? And in personal relationships too? I have been very lucky in that the best girls picked me in school as well as at other places, and that my chef is also the best matchmaker in the world, BUT all of those relationships were more like a game, I was still alone. You seem to advocate for this and now I think you too have a weapon to make that work, that I don't have. I thought we had no cultural difference because I am a white American with Western European ancestry, but now I begin to realize that I know nothing about American culture. So then let me ask this, how do you make it work for yourself, when you run your entire life alone? ... Very puzzling. ...

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Most people do not have the option of having these kinds of resources at all.

If they are VERY lucky, they may have good parents or family members they can turn to for advice. Otherwise, they're on their own... Root, hog or die.

Again, you need to realize that the way you have been brought up is light-years in difference from the vast majority of people.