View Poll Results: torture a justifiable punishment in first world countires?

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  • Yes- only for terrible crimes, followed subsequently by execution

    10 18.87%
  • Yes, for terrible crimes, followed subsequently by life imprisonment

    1 1.89%
  • Never, under any circumstances.

    42 79.25%
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Thread: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

  1. #31
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Just for giggles? No.


    Nuclear weapon on a timer hidden in a major US city and we have a terrorist in custody who knows where it is? Yeah... but even then it should not be enshrined in law, more like "a forgiveable offense done out of desperate necessity."
    Odds are you'd never have such a person, and if he's wiling to de, he's wiling to lie. In other words wastes more time than it helps.

    However I argely agree with the rest.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #32
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It has nothing to do with government and the thugs (not bullies, thugs keep bullies in check) are just part of the alternative system. Who is "qualified" is who is capable.

    You are mixing domestic criminal justice issues with military/terrorism issues. Those are very different questions in my opinion.
    I don't understand the difference between thugs and bullies, I think they can switch. Also I don't understand the difference between domestic crimes (e.g. gang activity) and the part of international politics that is done by nation states, they all operate in a lawless environment ... jungle law.

  3. #33
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zariak View Post
    But it doesn't come around full circle. Someone could work for the US government as a waterboarder for their entire life and live a guilt-free and happy life knowing that they are exacting justice on sick, sick human beings. Do I want to beg for my life. No. No one does. Does Anders Breveik deserve to beg for his miserable life? Yes. Yes he does.
    Only if the torturer lives the life of a completely isolated monk. Torturing anything (let alone people) smells on you, mentally. Their happiness will be the same type of happiness as of the person they torture. By the way it is not your life that you will beg for, it is your DEATH that you will beg for, under modern techniques.

  4. #34
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zariak View Post
    Our bully, the legal system, exacts justice, when it we are desperate for it
    I though that common sense held that there is a big difference between justice and a legal system. I don't understand how the 2 are related to each other.

  5. #35
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Those terrorists and other opponents of our values, that commit heinous acts, have most likely resolved it within themselves, that their lives end before their criminal acts, and the torture that they get later is only a part of their death processes. This is why torture never works if we expect to gain "Earthly" benefits from it. ... And we are not in control of its non-"Earthly" "benefits".

  6. #36
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    I do not look at topics from ideological dogma, but pragmatic reality. It is reality ultimately that matters.

    A problem I tend to have with extreme partisans on either side, religious zealots and academic types is that they form their philosophy on what people and society should be, then then expect all to bend to suit their ideology or platitudes. If anyone is a victim because of it, their view is that it is unfortunate but the principle is of greater value.

    Law and order, ie justice, within society is very complex, fluid ebb and flow and changing. There is no one-rule, one-way, or universal code that does or can apply. People would maybe like government to be in total control, but it isn't and government realized it doesn't. Thus, circumstantially, the level at which criminal justice even attempts to function and what levels of jungle (or animal/natural) law tolerated by the criminal justice system varies by community, persons and circumstance.

    That includes the topic of level of violence and inflicting pain is tolerated varies.

  7. #37
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zariak View Post
    But it doesn't come around full circle. Someone could work for the US government as a waterboarder for their entire life and live a guilt-free and happy life knowing that they are exacting justice on sick, sick human beings. Do I want to beg for my life. No. No one does. Does Anders Breveik deserve to beg for his miserable life? Yes. Yes he does.
    Your arguments are the same as a predatory sadist. It starts by justifying the desire to torture by dehumanizing the victim. The clever predator then chooses the most helpless target, a criminal monster like Brevik that nobody is willing to defend. However, it doesn't end there and once given the keys to the castle, the abuse spreads to anyone within reach, including the innocent. Its been well documented in both the Zimbardo prison experiment and by countless historical examples.

    Justice exists to protect society not cater to those who enjoy inflicting suffering on others.

  8. #38
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    All it proves is that our country or any "civilized" country has stopped being civlized and decided that the only way to operate is to become like those we are fighting.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  9. #39
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    All it proves is that our country or any "civilized" country has stopped being civlized and decided that the only way to operate is to become like those we are fighting.
    yeah well turning the other cheek doesnt work in combat lol.

  10. #40
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by roflpublican View Post
    yeah well turning the other cheek doesnt work in combat lol.
    torturing someone has nothing to do with combat. If someone is trying to kill you, kill them.

    To try and equate the two is moronic.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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