View Poll Results: torture a justifiable punishment in first world countires?

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  • Yes- only for terrible crimes, followed subsequently by execution

    10 18.87%
  • Yes, for terrible crimes, followed subsequently by life imprisonment

    1 1.89%
  • Never, under any circumstances.

    42 79.25%
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Thread: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

  1. #21
    Advisor Zariak's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    Apart from the fact, that inflicting torture on things puts you in the same category as your most heinous torturous criminal enemies, you invite the same torture on yourself.

    I personally know someone who likes torture, and he calls it a method of scientific study. It IS really scientific, and the standard methods that secret service interrogators use, go far beyond a death. Modern torture techniques are based on ADAPTIVE control, deciding each of the next steps after evaluating the body's (and mind's) response to the current step. So a modern torture not only maximizes the suffering, but also elongates it INDEFINITELY.

    I could write here exact examples that were carried out on animals as studies, but I won't. I can tell you this much: torture is a result of what we are and it is coming to each and every one of us. It is not a good idea to invite it faster. You will not see the end of it!!!
    the way I see it, it's more like carrying out justice, for those who cannot fight back. For example, a man rapes and kills someone's daughter. Does the daughter's father exact justice? No. Is it his right to exact justice? Maybe. But the fact is, the US Legal System is responsible for exacting justice.

  2. #22
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    There are many situations where criminal justice and the legal system are basically irrelevant or not applicable. For example if it involves illegalities or in basically forgotten communities.

    If a low rent man beats a low rent hooker or barfly, the law is likely to do nothing, basically can't be reported, and even if police/DA do anything, it will be so trivial as to not serve any deterrent value to others. However, if it understand in advance that the result is to get the hell beat out of him it does have a deterrent value. The "legal system" of even our civilized society operates possible as much or more on that level of justice.

  3. #23
    Advisor Zariak's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    True enough, but the effect is the same: kill them at once and they are no longer a threat to anyone.

    In the middle ages they tried public torture of criminals as a deterrent. Didn't work worth a darn, partly because they sucked at catching criminals...


    Gov't having the power to torture its citizens is not something I want enshrined in law in my country.

    Just kill 'em. Then they can answer to God for anything they still owe for their crimes.
    Anyone who commits crimes against other humans that are undeniably atrocious in nature, gives up their right to be a citizen. Telling the victim's families that God will exact justice would be folly if the family was atheist.

  4. #24
    Educator / Liar Champion ab9924's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    By the government, no. Definitely.

    In jungle or natural law, circumstantially yes - but then no prison is involved. However I don't necessary mean torture as most people think of it. Rather, retaliatory or punitive violence and/or injury. Such was an alternative when the criminal justice system involving was not relevant.
    Congratulations, with this, we have now arrived at the foundations of modern day nation state international politics.

    I am just curious, which one of the bullies do you think is qualified to say when a revenge is due?

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    Advisor Zariak's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    Congratulations, with this, we have now arrived at the foundations of modern day nation state international politics.

    I am just curious, which one of the bullies do you think is qualified to say when a revenge is due?
    Our bully, the legal system, exacts justice, when it we are desperate for it

  6. #26
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    Congratulations, with this, we have now arrived at the foundations of modern day nation state international politics.

    I am just curious, which one of the bullies do you think is qualified to say when a revenge is due?

    It has nothing to do with government and the thugs (not bullies, thugs keep bullies in check) are just part of the alternative system. Who is "qualified" is who is capable.

    You are mixing domestic criminal justice issues with military/terrorism issues. Those are very different questions in my opinion.

  7. #27
    Educator / Liar Champion ab9924's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Thru the 1800s, torture was still debated academically as to whether it was a viable form of punishment. For some, they saw it as a superior alternative to long term imprisonment. The view was 1.) it is more fearful 2.) it is justified retribution and 3.) it does not harm other dependents - such as the criminal's children - as opposed to a long prison term - questioning the deterent, psychological result and adverse affect on those dependent on the criminal.
    Very interesting. When people are trying to be clever, such as 19th century academics (or even worse, 20th century academics), they just make everything progressively worse. Much worse. The most humane(!) of all of these "advancements" is the status quo that existed before all of them ... which is to just kill them quick, regardless of affiliation, persistency, age, ... . If a person is dependent on a criminal, will be free to move on that way too, torture doesn't buy that either.

  8. #28
    Educator / Liar Champion ab9924's Avatar
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zariak View Post
    the way I see it, it's more like carrying out justice, for those who cannot fight back. For example, a man rapes and kills someone's daughter. Does the daughter's father exact justice? No. Is it his right to exact justice? Maybe. But the fact is, the US Legal System is responsible for exacting justice.
    Killing is justice. Torture is not. It always comes around, so what do you prefer at the end of the full circle, begging for your death, or just receiving your death?

  9. #29
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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    Very interesting. When people are trying to be clever, such as 19th century academics (or even worse, 20th century academics), they just make everything progressively worse. Much worse. The most humane(!) of all of these "advancements" is the status quo that existed before all of them ... which is to just kill them quick, regardless of affiliation, persistency, age, ... . If a person is dependent on a criminal, will be free to move on that way too, torture doesn't buy that either.
    I was not advocating torture, just pointing out it was considered a legitimate debate topic for a very long time - and some of the arguments made on its behalf. I specifically also stated I oppose torture by government as a form of punishment within the criminal justice system.

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    Re: is torture a justifiable punishment in a first world civilized country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    Killing is justice. Torture is not. It always comes around, so what do you prefer at the end of the full circle, begging for your death, or just receiving your death?
    But it doesn't come around full circle. Someone could work for the US government as a waterboarder for their entire life and live a guilt-free and happy life knowing that they are exacting justice on sick, sick human beings. Do I want to beg for my life. No. No one does. Does Anders Breveik deserve to beg for his miserable life? Yes. Yes he does.

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