View Poll Results: Does the government frequently lie to us to manipulate us?

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  • Yes, and it almost always succeeds

    10 55.56%
  • Yes, but I am smart enough to know the difference

    5 27.78%
  • No, usually not

    2 11.11%
  • No, unless it necessary for our own good

    0 0%
  • IDK/Other

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Thread: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

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    Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Now to derail any questioning of the government's claims is merely to call someone a conspiracy kook.

    Does the government generally lie to manipulate the public? Most notable examples?

    1. The justification for the Spanish-American war was the FACT that the Spanish sunk the Maine battleship. The whole war based on "REMEMBER THE
    MAINE! A couple decades ago the truth came out that the Spanish had not sunk the Maine.

    2. The beginning of WWI for the US was that the Germans suck the Lusitania strictly passenger ship, though Germans had taken out newspaper ads
    specifically warning Americans not to get on it because it was a munitions ship. The USA adamently denied that was true. 50 years later it
    admitted/known the Lusitannia was carrying 50,000,000 rounds of ammo and 500,000 artillery shells - probably why it sunk so fast.

    3. The Vietnam War started with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution upon the FACT that N. Vietnamese patrol boats attacked a US destroyer. After we had
    left it was admitted this never happened.

    4. Gulf War II. Weapons of Mass Destruction

    Now, about the economy:
    Declaring there is essentially no inflation - but excluding food, fuel/gas/diesel, electricity and natural gas, medical bills and prescription drug prices from the calculation - those of course being THE most essential expenses of the poor and ordinary citizens - making that statistic a calculated lie.

    Unemployment: All unemployed people who are not on unemployment benefits, over 65, or do not apply for jobs at a federal job location are not counted. Does not count school age teens who can't find work. Does not count college students who can't find a job.
    The survey ONLY polls major corporations, so lost jobs in small business are not counted.
    If a company converts a job from 40 hour full time with benefits, to TWO PART TIME jobs at 20 hours with no benefits, the government claims a job was created and unemployment reduced by 1, thus if 5,000,000 people lose full time employment for instead part time employment, the government declares 5,000,000 jobs were created - unless those two people then work 2 part time jobs, and then they claim 10,000,000 jobs created.

    On war: "Casualities" until the Middle East wars ALWAYS meant soldiers killed or WOUNDED beyond an ability to be combat capable. NOW we are ONLY told how many died - and only how many died in combat - and died in the country. If the person can be flown out of the country before dying, it no longer counts and the nearly 10 times as many horrifically crippled literally count for nothing now.

    The great boasting of the military and Obama was "killing Obama," although no dna sample allowed by any independent source, all the locals there in Pakistan claim publicly they knew the old guy who lived there and it wasn't Bin Ladin, the CIA claims to have lost all photographs of who they shot, his body rapidly tossed into the ocean and most the Seal Team involves shortly thereafter blown up in a freak, never discussed, helicopter explosion.

    While boasting of decimating Al Qaeda, Obama is urging agreeing to send USA troops under a UN Flag to the country of Mali, contradictingly claiming that Al Qaeda has taken over half that country and adding to the list the number of countries we are now predator bombing to kill the claimed decimated Al Qaeda.

    Is any of that true? Can we believe anything we are told anymore? Could we ever? Is there any reason to believe a damn thing the media tells us the government says is true, noting that all media now appears to no longer investigate anything and only pick one side or the other as a partisan matter?

    Does the government generally tell deliberate lies to manipulate we-the-people?
    Last edited by joko104; 11-10-12 at 08:17 PM.

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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Yes, thats a part of government, on many levels and for many reasons.

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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Does the government generally lie to manipulate the public? Most notable examples?
    Yes, the government frequently lies. But some of your examples do not qualify:

    Declaring there is essentially no inflation - but excluding food, fuel/gas/diesel, electricity and natural gas, medical bills and prescription drug prices from the calculation - those of course being THE most essential expenses of the poor and ordinary citizens - making that statistic a calculated lie.
    No it's not. Excluding food and energy from the core inflation calculation is wise, because they are not economic indicators. If there is a drought, food prices will rise. If there is a fire at an oil refinery, fuel prices will rise. If you include those things in core inflation, you'll get a very distorted view of how serious inflation is...and this would lead to unwise policies to solve a nonexistent problem.

    Unemployment: All unemployed people who are not on unemployment benefits, over 65, or do not apply for jobs at a federal job location are not counted. Does not count school age teens who can't find work. Does not count college students who can't find a job.
    What you are referring to is the "unemployment rate," but there are several other measures of unemployment as well which the government publishes. Some of which are more inclusive, some of which are less inclusive. It isn't a lie, it just measures what it's intended to measure.

    If a company converts a job from 40 hour full time with benefits, to TWO PART TIME jobs at 20 hours with no benefits, the government claims a job was created and unemployment reduced by 1, thus if 5,000,000 people lose full time employment for instead part time employment, the government declares 5,000,000 jobs were created - unless those two people then work 2 part time jobs, and then they claim 10,000,000 jobs created.
    This is not correct. Unemployment is measured based on hours worked...a 20 hour job only counts half as much as a 40 hour job.

    On war: "Casualities" until the Middle East wars ALWAYS meant soldiers killed or WOUNDED beyond an ability to be combat capable. NOW we are ONLY told how many died - and only how many died in combat - and died in the country. If the person can be flown out of the country before dying, it no longer counts and the nearly 10 times as many horrifically crippled literally count for nothing now.
    I'm not sure if the government actually releases any "casualties" statistics at all. I think they're just reported in the media, which can use whatever definition it wants to use.
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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, the government frequently lies. But some of your examples do not qualify:



    No it's not. Excluding food and energy from the core inflation calculation is wise, because they are not economic indicators. If there is a drought, food prices will rise. If there is a fire at an oil refinery, fuel prices will rise. If you include those things in core inflation, you'll get a very distorted view of how serious inflation is...and this would lead to unwise policies to solve a nonexistent problem.



    What you are referring to is the "unemployment rate," but there are several other measures of unemployment as well which the government publishes. Some of which are more inclusive, some of which are less inclusive. It isn't a lie, it just measures what it's intended to measure.



    This is not correct. Unemployment is measured based on hours worked...a 20 hour job only counts half as much as a 40 hour job.



    I'm not sure if the government actually releases any "casualties" statistics at all. I think they're just reported in the media, which can use whatever definition it wants to use.
    So what you are saying is that you accept that statistics the government presents claiming the government is doing a good job with the economy are factually true as a certainty. Even though it known a change of administrations DOES call a huge number of people in government to be fired and replaced by the new incoming President - and that challenger is promising to law off people in government.

    In short, you agree the government lied in the past, don't like my current examples, and present current government stats as inherently true? Or maybe that isn't what you are saying.

    In terms of the government telling the truth to manipulate the public to the goals of government, do you think economic stats presented by the government are always truthful?

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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    So what you are saying is that you accept that statistics the government presents claiming the government is doing a good job with the economy are factually true as a certainty.
    The government offers no statistics that "claim the government is doing a good job with the economy." That is up to the voters to decide. The government does, however, offer statistics on inflation and unemployment which present an accurate measurement of what they were intended to measure.

    Even though it known a change of administrations DOES call a huge number of people in government to be fired and replaced by the new incoming President - and that challenger is promising to law off people in government.
    I live in DC, and I can definitively tell you that there are not that many people who are fired and replaced by new presidents...mainly just the top echelons of power. The people who compile these statistics are just life-long civil servants, not politicians.

    In short, you agree the government lied in the past, don't like my current examples, and present current government stats as inherently true? Or maybe that isn't what you are saying.
    More or less. The government frequently lies...I just don't think some of those examples qualify.

    In terms of the government telling the truth to manipulate the public to the goals of government, do you think economic stats presented by the government are always truthful?
    Yeah, the statistics are always truthful, in that they accurately measure what they say they will measure. But the way they are spun by politicians may not always be truthful.
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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Depends. This is far too broad an issue to say is the government lying. Which part?

    Does the government lie. Sure.
    Do all government agencies lie - At some point probably
    Do all government employees lie - Probably not

    the most notable examples of agency lying is CIA, FBI, DOD. There are of course others but it depends on when and whats the issue
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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Now to derail any questioning of the government's claims is merely to call someone a conspiracy kook.

    Does the government generally lie to manipulate the public? Most notable examples?

    1. The justification for the Spanish-American war was the FACT that the Spanish sunk the Maine battleship. The whole war based on "REMEMBER THE
    MAINE! A couple decades ago the truth came out that the Spanish had not sunk the Maine.

    2. The beginning of WWI for the US was that the Germans suck the Lusitania strictly passenger ship, though Germans had taken out newspaper ads
    specifically warning Americans not to get on it because it was a munitions ship. The USA adamently denied that was true. 50 years later it
    admitted/known the Lusitannia was carrying 50,000,000 rounds of ammo and 500,000 artillery shells - probably why it sunk so fast.

    3. The Vietnam War started with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution upon the FACT that N. Vietnamese patrol boats attacked a US destroyer. After we had
    left it was admitted this never happened.

    4. Gulf War II. Weapons of Mass Destruction
    The Lusitania was sunk in 1915 and the US didn't enter the war until 1917, and we entered it not because we had been attacked but for our own national interest. If anything the Zimmerman Telegram had more to do with it than the Lusitania.

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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No it's not. Excluding food and energy from the core inflation calculation is wise, because they are not economic indicators. If there is a drought, food prices will rise. If there is a fire at an oil refinery, fuel prices will rise. If you include those things in core inflation, you'll get a very distorted view of how serious inflation is...and this would lead to unwise policies to solve a nonexistent problem.
    How could we possibly measure inflation if we intentionally leave out people's most common and direct expenditures? It renders the concept meaningless. I guess it's easy to insist we have no inflation when we're not allowed to actually examine reality.

    What you are referring to is the "unemployment rate," but there are several other measures of unemployment as well which the government publishes. Some of which are more inclusive, some of which are less inclusive. It isn't a lie, it just measures what it's intended to measure.
    Why not use Employment to Population Ratio? Is an unemployed person who stopped seeking employment employed, or unemployed? Again, the little tricks like these render the concepts meaningless.

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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    How could we possibly measure inflation if we intentionally leave out people's most common and direct expenditures? It renders the concept meaningless. I guess it's easy to insist we have no inflation when we're not allowed to actually examine reality.
    Because the whole purpose of collecting economic statistics is to use them to inform policy decisions. The policy solutions for dealing with high CORE inflation (e.g. raising interest rates and/or reducing the deficit) are completely different than the policy solutions for dealing with high FOOD inflation (e.g. hope for better weather next year).

    If you include items like food and energy - for which the inflation rate is usually based more on random external factors than on economic policy - you will get a very warped view of how serious inflation is and what policies should be used (or not used) to solve it.

    Why not use Employment to Population Ratio? Is an unemployed person who stopped seeking employment employed, or unemployed? Again, the little tricks like these render the concepts meaningless.
    The employment-to-population ratio is a readily available statistic too. All the different measures of unemployment measure different things, and they never claim otherwise. Just because some people spin them in a certain way, and/or can't understand what they are measuring, doesn't mean they are "little tricks." They all measure what they say they measure, and nothing more or less.
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    Re: Are the claims of the USA government generally tell manipulative lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because the whole purpose of collecting economic statistics is to use them to inform policy decisions. The policy solutions for dealing with high CORE inflation (e.g. raising interest rates and/or reducing the deficit) are completely different than the policy solutions for dealing with high FOOD inflation (e.g. hope for better weather next year).

    If you include items like food and energy - for which the inflation rate is usually based more on random external factors than on economic policy - you will get a very warped view of how serious inflation is and what policies should be used (or not used) to solve it.
    I understand your argument, but are you recognizing how meaningless this information then becomes to the average family whose food and energy expenditures are= their largest variable expenses? Again I ask: What should be included in our measure of inflation whose prices does NOT depend on any random external factors (i.e. whose price depends solely on policy decisions?).

    The employment-to-population ratio is a readily available statistic too. All the different measures of unemployment measure different things, and they never claim otherwise. Just because some people spin them in a certain way, and/or can't understand what they are measuring, doesn't mean they are "little tricks." They all measure what they say they measure, and nothing more or less.
    This seems disingenuous. If you asked any halfway intelligent human who had never heard of economics to imagine what is meant by the term "unemployment rate," s/he would likely answer without pause that it refers to the percentage of people who don't have jobs. It would make sense to exclude children who can't by law have jobs and the retired who can't be expected to, but beyond that, the fact that there are "all the(se) different measures of unemployment" serves no purpose that I can see other than to sell an inaccurate storyline to the American people.

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