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Thread: Kids n' Kondoms

  1. #71
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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    This flies in the face of numerous studies on sex education vs abstinence education.



    This is simply a reiteration of your position (and your opinion, at that).
    Abstinence education by who?

    NOT ALL PARENTS agree that "safe" promiscuous sex is superior to "risky sex" when it comes to disease and pregnancy. There are parents who would prefer their child get pregnant or have a baby even if not ready and possibly a premature marriage or relationship - that then might end in divorce or not - than to become promiscuous "semi-safely." Not everyone agrees that teen pregnancy is evil or wrong. Some do believe that sex SHOULD risk pregnancy - thus reducing promiscuity and all the dangers they see that as bringing. Some would rather their kid have sex once and get pregnant or have a baby, then have lots of sex, no kid, but then still risk being pregnancy from someone she had no relationship with at all and HIV positive too to her believing there is such a thing as "safe sex" with others who believe the same thing.

    Who gets to gamble with their kid's whole life, future and values? The parents? Or the school?

    In addition, the parents might not LIKE the condoms the school is giving out. For size. Quality. Whether or not has spermicide. Don't know how old they are. How they were stored etc.

    The school handing out condoms is the school making a statement about sex - sex that may well be felony illegal to have - and that statement may exactly contradict the parents.

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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yeah - wow - that 14% fail rate (which is what you'd expect from crusty condoms out of a wall hung dispenser in the boy's locker room after it's been in his wallet - and got knows where else).

    Yes - they reduce your risks, no duh, of course they do. . . but is the school going to accept any responsibility for when they DON'T? They are not 100%.

    The risk is too great for me to ever suggest someone RELY on such a thing that's been stored and purchased in such a manor. They have expiration dates and so forth . . come on. I wouldn't trust a dispensed condom to save my life.

    Actually - I DID and Child #1 and #2 are here because of condoms and spermicide. Ok - I didn't bareback EVER until I married my now-husband and I went on the pill. . . but yet I had 2 kids with my ex.
    This argument is a pretty good example of the Nirvana Fallacy, whereby (in this discussion) you're comparing the effectiveness of condoms with unrealistic, idealized alternatives (none or vaguely specified low quantities of teen pregnancy/stds). Yet somehow the high standards condoms are judged by are conveniently missing when applied to the high failure rate of abstinence education.

  3. #73
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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Because Walgreens/CVS isn't giving them away to children,
    They will sell them to whomever wants to buy them. They are not an age-restricted item like cigarettes.

    nor does either of them make any representations about their effectiveness or risks.
    As long as schools are not falsely claiming that they are 100% reliable, this objection does not make much sense to me.

    Schools are handing them out as 'safe" sex tools. HUGE different of liability as one is passive and the other pro-active. Walgreens/CVS aren't telling kids coming into the store, "here, have these for free. They are for safe sex practice."
    The free-vs-sale aspect has no bearing on liability; if anything, marketing claims are scrutinized MORE closely when money is involved. And those stores *do* sell them for safe sex...that is how condoms are marketed and is their entire reason for existence.

    On top of that, parents can forbid their children going to drug stores nor have to take them to one every day. Attendance in school and compliance is required.
    Sorry but I don't think that ensuring children don't have to be in the same vicinity as a condom (which they aren't even required to take) is as important as protecting students from pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-10-12 at 10:44 PM.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    This brings back childhood memories - when I was 10 or 11 the schools in the Maryland Area had a condom walkout to protest and demand they be put in.

    I thought then - and think now - that it's the stupidest ****ing thing. School is for education - not for suiting up. Providing it condones it . . . so I prefer we keep school without it.

    Even though I had sex a lot in my highschool - still. . . I oppose it.
    So, how is this logical? Did you want to get pregnant whilst at school? I know for a fact, that almost nobody ever will bother to go anywhere to get a condom, so very few use it, but if you didn't have to actually go out of your way to get it, because it is there, then you will use it. I was told to use it always, by everyone, and I am absolutely surprised, that here is the 1st adult in the universe, you, who argues against it. Maybe, can you clarify?

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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    This argument is a pretty good example of the Nirvana Fallacy, whereby (in this discussion) you're comparing the effectiveness of condoms with unrealistic, idealized alternatives (none or vaguely specified low quantities of teen pregnancy/stds). Yet somehow the high standards condoms are judged by are conveniently missing when applied to the high failure rate of abstinence education.
    Again, "abstinence education" by who? The school?

    What is obvious is that those advocating handing out condoms talk about students as if talking about a herd of cattle. To a parent, it isn't about "students," it is about "MY CHILD."

    I can't count how many times my wife got into it with school personnel over their standard of all-the-students and her standard of "my daughter."

    Yet, nearly all, came to quickly respect her for it, because they also saw the results of intense parental focus on her all across the board - one effect of which was EVERY teacher REALLY wanted her in their classes. So did the school. She in a way became their show-student. We taught her not only great study habits, the importance of education etc, but also interpersonal interactions, including how to work with (and if necessary manipulate) teachers. They all LOVED her! We OFTEN strategized about each teacher. Which ones want challenges, which ones want submission/agreement etc... But I won't go on.

    When it comes to MY children, I DO NOT CARE what is best for MOST students. I care what is best for MY CHILD. I do NOT want the school contradicting that and for anything outside EDUCATION I don't think they have any right - moral or legal - to do so. I do NOT want a school teaching my child about "safe sex" on some generic greatest-good-for-greatest-number = for which the factor from the lowest denomination/intelligent and reckless kids - and it devoid of relationship matters and 85% right and 15% or even 1% slow disease death.

  6. #76
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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    So, how is this logical? Did you want to get pregnant whilst at school? I know for a fact, that almost nobody ever will bother to go anywhere to get a condom, so very few use it, but if you didn't have to actually go out of your way to get it, because it is there, then you will use it. I was told to use it always, by everyone, and I am absolutely surprised, that here is the 1st adult in the universe, you, who argues against it. Maybe, can you clarify?
    My later posts address why I hold that view - they're the worst form of birth control out there. But that's not even the point - the point is that it's not the school's business or place to provide them - period. . . no matter how effective they are.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    So, how is this logical? Did you want to get pregnant whilst at school? I know for a fact, that almost nobody ever will bother to go anywhere to get a condom, so very few use it, but if you didn't have to actually go out of your way to get it, because it is there, then you will use it. I was told to use it always, by everyone, and I am absolutely surprised, that here is the 1st adult in the universe, you, who argues against it. Maybe, can you clarify?
    That's not the question. The question is whether at age 10 or 12 or 14 she wanted to get f/cked, AND she needed the school to help her out with that by surrounding her with little boys with condoms in their pockets.

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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Abstinence education by who?

    NOT ALL PARENTS agree that "safe" promiscuous sex is superior to "risky sex" when it comes to disease and pregnancy. There are parents who would prefer their child get pregnant or have a baby even if not ready and possibly a premature marriage or relationship - that then might end in divorce or not - than to become promiscuous "semi-safely." Not everyone agrees that teen pregnancy is evil or wrong. Some do believe that sex SHOULD risk pregnancy - thus reducing promiscuity and all the dangers they see that as bringing. Some would rather their kid have sex once and get pregnant or have a baby, then have lots of sex, no kid, but then still risk being pregnancy from someone she had no relationship with at all and HIV positive too to her believing there is such a thing as "safe sex" with others who believe the same thing.
    Well, I guess that pregnancy is one way to reduce promiscuity, but since the goal as understood in this thread is to reduce std's and pregnancies so that students can carry on with their education then that approach will be generally ineffective. So again, what is the goal here? Is it reduce teen std's and pregnancy, or is it to condemn teen sex? One approach is effective, the other is not.
    Who gets to gamble with their kid's whole life, future and values? The parents? Or the school?

    In addition, the parents might not LIKE the condoms the school is giving out. For size. Quality. Whether or not has spermicide. Don't know how old they are. How they were stored etc.
    Parents buying the condoms they prefer for their children is not incompatible with schools providing condoms. What next? Complain that the school is selling Pepsi when the parents prefer Coke?

    The school handing out condoms is the school making a statement about sex
    Yes, and that statement is "be careful," because the statement "sex is bad, mkay?" has already been shown not to work.

    - sex that may well be felony illegal to have
    While I'm not educated on all state laws I've never heard of teen sex being illegal.


    - and that statement may exactly contradict the parents.
    Then the parents are free to carry out the abominable option of homeschooling their children. If schools were to have education and programs that each and every parent approved of, schools could not exist.

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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by ab9924 View Post
    At 11 or under, rather under ... although the statistics are not known, students fooling with each other in elementary schools can't be stomped out.
    So just throw in the towel and start passing out the Trojans?

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    Re: Kids n' Kondoms

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    At what age should our children be before the school system may issue government subsidized condoms to them?
    **** that, they can buy their own rubbers like everyone else.
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