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Immigration reform

What changes should be done to our immigration policy

  • Leave it as it is-some quotas based on countries of origin

    Votes: 4 9.5%

  • do not change the laws but enforce them better

    Votes: 9 21.4%

  • Restrict immigration to those with needed skills

    Votes: 14 33.3%

  • restrict immigration to those able to provide for themselves

    Votes: 10 23.8%

  • Have a complete moratorium on immigration for a period of years

    Votes: 6 14.3%

  • Other

    Votes: 16 38.1%
  • Total voters
    42
The Giant Noodle said:
OK but only after they pass my panel.
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images.jpg
^you must be 45% more attractive than this to enter the country, if not then don't pass go, don't collect $200. :confused:
 
TurtleDude said:
you should pay a wage sufficient to obtain the quantity and quality of labor you need.
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management should purchase labor based on economic demand
allowing the low end labor market to be flooded with undocumented illegals provides a massive supply of labor to fill that limited domestic demand for unskilled work
as with all things, when the supply is abundant then the price for that abundant good or service - in this example, LABOR - declines
and management reaps larger profits due to the lower cost of labor ... which low cost is present because of the government's consent to the illegals performing such work (by not adequately enforcing the immigration laws)

what is a living wage? some artificial bit of crap that the left howls for that puts american companies at a competitive disadvantage
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a living wage squire, is that income which a worker would realize from full time employment, sufficient to provide for his family without having to rely on government welfare
where that income becomes equal or less than what the employee would be able to realize from welfare, he no longer has a rational incentive to sell his labor - it then becomes an irrational decision to work
 
justabubba said:
management should purchase labor based on economic demand
allowing the low end labor market to be flooded with undocumented illegals provides a massive supply of labor to fill that limited domestic demand for unskilled work
as with all things, when the supply is abundant then the price for that abundant good or service - in this example, LABOR - declines
and management reaps larger profits due to the lower cost of labor ... which low cost is present because of the government's consent to the illegals performing such work (by not adequately enforcing the immigration laws)


a living wage squire, is that income which a worker would realize from full time employment, sufficient to provide for his family without having to rely on government welfare
where that income becomes equal or less than what the employee would be able to realize from welfare, he no longer has a rational incentive to sell his labor - it then becomes an irrational decision to work
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the market should set wages--if you want a wage sufficient to live on-have the skills sufficient to earn such a wage
 
TurtleDude said:
the market should set wages--
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that's what i said
demand

if you want a wage sufficient to live on-have the skills sufficient to earn such a wage
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and for those with the aptitude to do so, i agree with you
but the playing field has been made unlevel by the government's tolerance of undocumented illegal workers
so, instead of competing against other low skill Americans, they are competing against the swollen ranks of low skill undocumented illegal workers
let me offer a scenario which may allow you to relate to their plight
let's assume that you no longer have any wealth and that for your family's living, they rely upon your earnings as an attorney
however, the government has opened the door to all the world's legal practitioners, flooding your industry with new lawyers willing to perform legal services for peanuts
your family's well-being would be severely diminished, not because you are a ****ty, unskilled lawyer, but because you are now having to reduce the fees you charge to a point that it is barely profitable for you to even keep your practice open
there are only two differences between the real plight of low skill Americans and the scenario i have provided for your review. your industry requires high skills, which poses a barrier of entry to those without those skills, and two, your industry is not faced with the horde of illegal competition to which the unskilled American worker is and has been subject
 
justabubba said:
that's what i said
demand


and for those with the aptitude to do so, i agree with you
but the playing field has been made unlevel by the government's tolerance of undocumented illegal workers
so, instead of competing against other low skill Americans, they are competing against the swollen ranks of low skill undocumented illegal workers
let me offer a scenario which may allow you to relate to their plight
let's assume that you no longer have any wealth and that for your family's living, they rely upon your earnings as an attorney
however, the government has opened the door to all the world's legal practitioners, flooding your industry with new lawyers willing to perform legal services for peanuts
your family's well-being would be severely diminished, not because you are a ****ty, unskilled lawyer, but because you are now having to reduce the fees you charge to a point that it is barely profitable for you to even keep your practice open
there are only two differences between the real plight of low skill Americans and the scenario i have provided for your review. your industry requires high skills, which poses a barrier of entry to those without those skills, and two, your industry is not faced with the horde of illegal competition to which the unskilled American worker is and has been subject
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I'd fine companies that use illegals extremely heavily
if people didn't hire them there would be far less here
 
TurtleDude said:
I'd fine companies that use illegals extremely heavily
if people didn't hire them there would be far less here
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Your republican friends have always refused to do that...they love the cheap labor...Reagan especially loved it.
 
lpast said:
Your republican friends have always refused to do that...they love the cheap labor...Reagan especially loved it.
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both parties love it

dems love the votes, business owners love cheap labor
 
TurtleDude said:
both parties love it

dems love the votes, business owners love cheap labor
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you must not practice immigration law, otherwise you would realize that undocumented illegal aliens are not eligible to vote in USA elections
 
jamesrage said:
These farmers don't want so called low skilled immigrants, if they did they would file for more H2A Visas. What these farmers want are low skilled illegals so that they can pay them **** wages.By the way labor has little to do with the overall cost of food.This tomatoes will cost five dollars a pound if farmers have to hire illegals is nothing more than pro-illegal scum fear mongering.


Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.

The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.

Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 ½ hours for an acre of wheat.

The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues to rely on illegal workers. A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year — only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics, but 29 percent of all workers in that job category.

Eliminating illegal farmworkers, by shrinking the pool of available labor, likely would raise wages for those who remain. Philip Martin, a professor of agricultural economics at the University of California, Davis, noted that two years after the old bracero program ended in 1964, the United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent increase for grape harvesters.

A decade ago, two Iowa State University agricultural economists estimated that removing all illegal farmworkers would raise wages for seasonal farmworkers by 30 percent in the first couple of years, and 15 percent in the medium term.

But supermarket prices of summer-fall fruits and vegetables, they concluded, would rise by just 6 percent in the short run — dropping to 3 percent over time, as imports took up some of the slack and some farmers mechanized their operations or shifted out of labor-intensive crops. (Winter-spring produce would be even less affected, they found, because so much already is imported.)
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The point still stands that low-skill immigrants cost even less in lowered wages and unemployment, which Illegals have almost no effect on either. History is replete with examples. Look at the Mariel Boat Lift. In 1980, 125,000 Cuban immigrants were allowed into Florida. The workforce of Miami-Dade County increased by 7% within six months, and native wages and unemployment were unaffected. South Africa under Apartheid had treated entry into their predominately White areas similarly to very anti-immigrant countries. Blacks were not allowed to go into many cities and regions without proper permits. When Apartheid ended millions of rural Blacks moved to the cities. Despite this massive migration bringing together two groups with massive wealth differences, the wages and employment of White South Africans did not decline. Immigrants increase the size of the labor force, and they allow people to move to other sectors, increasing productivity. Immigrants create a larger, more diversified workforce. This is good for all Americans.


The Impact of the Mariel Boatlift on the Miami Labor Market
 
It makes no sense why America will not enforce its immigration laws. Is it illogical to think that, if there were terrorists who wished to enter this country, they could enter through America's southern border? The way these illegal aliens have entered America is an insult to not only those American citizens who waited to enter our nation legally, but those would-be citizens who are still waiting in line.
 
TurtleDude said:
IT is now well known that hispanic immigrants who came here legally or illegally and then gained citizenship were a major reason for Obama winning Florida, Virginia Colorado and perhaps some other states. Several discussions I heard today noted that the welfare promises of the DNC rather than amnesty were the main reason why more than 2/3s of these hispanic immigrants voted for Obama. 75% of them are not well educated or have a skilled trade.

Based on those assumptions, what should be done with our immigration policies
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Revoke their citizenship. I believe in majority rule, but the present majority has been imposed against the will of the original majority. So we have the right and the duty to change it back to what it was before Teddy Kennedy's 1965 I Hate Americans Act.
 
justabubba said:
do you have a cite showing this to be accurate
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Sites and sources are just opinions and are less valid than personal opinions based on logic and experience. The Internet should not be a reference manual aiding the authoritarian and self-appointed people with the power to create sources. A "reliable source" is liable to lie or omit truly relevant data.
 
MaggieD said:
Even if it's all true, I don't see what difference it makes as to what our policy should be on immigration.

This is no different than believing that many in poor communities believe that voting for Obama will get them more welfare. And if we're stupid enough to give welfare to illegal immigrants? We deserve exactly what we get.
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We deserve what we weren't allowed to vote on? If we had a free country instead of a republic, we would have voted against welfare for immigration criminals, so why should we submit to your bullying insult that it is our own fault?
 
haymarket said:
Sadly the message that comes across loud and clear behind them motivation of this thread is that somebody believes the wrong people are voting the wrong way for the wrong candidates and electing the wrong people into the wrong offices and then using those offices to do the wrong things ..... so ....... we should do something so that the people they think are right and good will vote for the candidates they think are right and good and only the right and good people will get into office and do the right and good things to benefit folks like them.
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What's wrong with that? Multiculties and imported citizens support this betrayal because they think they are the right people voting the right way, etc.
 
MarineTpartier said:
I believe Turtle is right on this. Hispanics broke for Pres Obama in droves during this election. Just because someone is a legal citizen doesn't mean they A) Dont' have an illegal relative(s) B) Don't know an illegal immigrant C) Weren't an illegal themselves at some point D) Simply see Gov Romney's self deportation statement as general discrimination or lack of concern for hispanics. Further evidence of this is that Pres Bush II got a lot more of the hispanic vote because his immigration policies were much more moderate. I'm not saying they are wrong about that. I didn't vote for Gov Romney for many reasons. But first and foremost was the simple fact that I believe he would get us into another useless war/conflict. I probably could've overlooked a lot of the other stuff but that issue made me write in Ron Paul instead of vote for Romney. Some people are one issue voters, that's all there is to it. When that one issue is the deportation of your relatives/friends or the perceived general lack of concern for your entire race, it equals a landslide break for Pres Obama. I don't blame them either. I'd probably do the same thing if I were hispanic.
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Of course, we're not allowed to suggest that even more important to them than welfare or immigration policies is the fact that They Hate White People. Obama represents Montezuma's Revenge.
 
Kandahar said:
[x] Open borders for anyone in the world who has at least a bachelor's degree and has committed no crimes.
[x] Increased immigration for those who want to pursue a bachelor's degree.
[x] Offer in-state tuition at state universities for all immigrants, regardless of legal status, who meet state residency requirements.
[x] Amnesty and a path to citizenship for all undocumented immigrants who have been here at least five years and who have committed no (real) crimes.
[x] Free public education and health care to all children, regardless of legal status.
[x] No change to immigration quotas for unskilled labor.
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[X-out the other Xs] Replace our dysfunctional class-biased, childish, and self-destructive indentured-servitude education with paid professional training and you will get the full development of the potential of the native-born Americans, which is the highest in the world. Not only will there be no shortages in skilled work, but the no-talent bluebloods and brown-noses who occupy those positions now will be replaced by more talented employees.
 
TurtleDude said:
the market should set wages--if you want a wage sufficient to live on-have the skills sufficient to earn such a wage
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I agree, but how can you possibly square that with your anti-immigrant position? Why do you support protectionist handouts when there are qualified workers available who are willing to do the job for less? Why are you so jealous of those who took the time to get a skill/education? :roll:


It is patently absurd to be virulently anti-immigrant and also oppose wage controls. Americans aren't going to do those jobs for the wages that immigrants will do them, and the jobs aren't worth much more than that.
 
MaggieD said:
Filling jobs with people in jail? That sounds a lot like slavery to me.
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The 13th Amendment allows slavery and indentured servitude as punishment for a crime. So yes, it is slavery, and that's ok.
 
Kandahar said:
Having educated people more than pays for itself.
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College graduates contribute almost half a million each to society. Replacing the dysfunctional and unattractive indentured servitude system with paid professional training would automatically get the best talent, unlike this childish, depressing, and insulting self-sacrifice we have now. Graduates like those would contribute over a million dollars each and would only cost about $200,000, creating a net gain on investment of $800,000 each. "Work hard now and only get paid for it four to twenty years from now" is dysfunctional; only Diplomaed Dumboes would fail to see that.
This no-brainer conclusion is never allowed to come to consciousness because we are all brainwashed from childhood on that education only benefits the graduates, as if they were majoring in something like casino gambling (see the movie 21) and therefore they deserve to be punished for all the selfish rewards they will get later. The command given to us from above by the economic bullies, parasites who have no right to tell us what they want, is "To get a good job, get a good education." Notice that the plutocrats don't demand, "To do a good job, get a good education."

As for the personal benefit you brag about, you're in denial about the consequences of sacrificing those years living miserably on part-time jobs. It's as if you could eat free at gourmet restaurants for the rest of your life if you spent four years living on nothing but bread and water. The permanent indigestion caused by the sacrificed years would ruin your enjoyment of the reward.

Also, you have to rely all the time on the second-rate graduates you get from the indentured-servitude system. If you get cancer, you are going to die because only childish escapist freaks who don't earn a living until they are 30 years old are allowed to go into oncology. Excluding normal High IQs is the only reason cancer hasn't been cured.
 
roflpublican said:
indeed, the days of the robber barons are gone, pay a living wage or you should NOT be able to operate a business in this country.
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We should quit romanticizing small private farms. That lifestyle went out with the 19th Century. If Old McDonald refuses to do the work himself or with his family, but instead makes his money through low wages, he should sell to corporate farms. I doubt if the Amish hire illegals and they seem to be doing all right for themselves, if the Harrison Ford movie Witness is realistic.
 
Peter Grimm said:
This is one area where I strongly disagree with my party. I'm conservative. I was listening to Mark Levin on the radio, and normally I'm in agreement with his positions on other issues, but I was yelling at the radio today when he brought up the same points you are making about immigration.

I have lived in Latin America, and I have strong family ties to Brazil. Latinos are not the social welfare boogeymen the right makes them out to be. The only thing that would lead you to believe that is ignorance and xenophobia.

You don't think the Mexicans that are in this country work hard? Give me a break. Most of them work harder than any of us on this thread, and they get paid jack to do it. Yeah, they use a lot of social services. You want to guess why? Because they're POOR. They're first generation immigrants who literally walked here or floated over on a raft. So what?

I respect their dedication. I immigrated from Sweden legally, we flew first class. When I lived in Miami, I had friends from Cuba who literally floated over in a rubber raft, which is highly dangerous.

Latinos, as a group, are good, good people. They have strong families, conservative social and religious values, and they believe in working their butts off. They're the perfect constituency for the Republicans if we'd stop alienating them by acting like a bunch of scared bigots.

And finally, of course they will learn English. Like I said, they have strong families. If you meet these families, 99% of the time the parents are doing everything they can to make sure their kids go to English speaking schools and learn English. Why wouldn't they? They want their kids to succeed.

As for the parents learning English.... well, you try living abroad for a few years. I've done it. Learning another language is ****ing hard. It takes years to do.
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Then how come their own countries are ratholes? They will only bring that rat culture here, growing more and more as the multicultie traitors hand over more of our power to them. An analysis that doesn't start with a false conclusion will reveal that they can't blame their oppressive ruling classes; the common people are just as corrupt and dysfunctional. They have had plenty of revolutions, which always wind up solving nothing, because the people themselves are that way and not victims who will behave right when set free. Don't be misled by how the timid first generation here acts; their descendants will bring us nothing but rats.
 
It's funny to me that Hispanics are credited with giving President Obama his victory. Something I find even more interesting is the fact that, most Hispanics are Catholic, which is traditionally conservative, yet these immigrants voted not with their religion, but with their immediate world view. They're not worried about homosexual marriage or abortion, they're more worried about how they're going to survive. They're more worried about the needful things in life: food, shelter, medicine. But I seriously doubt there was enough Hispanic immigrants voting Democrat to give Obama an overarching victory over Romney. Personally, I think that's due more to the fact that America is starting to be more progressive overall, and the traditional conservative views are losing ground. But that's another story. Just remember this: if you're not Native American, you're an immigrant too. :)
 
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