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Will Obama live up to his victory speech?

Will Obama live up to his victory speech?


  • Total voters
    53
That sounds idyllic from the perspective of Americans who want a reasonable, fair, civil, and prosperous society, but it overlooks aspects of the issue that work on entirely different economic, cultural, and political levels.

As far this specific issue goes, the Democrats prosper the longer they stretch the issue out and the less they compromise with Republicans.

If both parties work out a fair and reasoned way to negotiate between the legal and numerical issues of Hispanic citizenship (which is tied to population growth), then over time that would make the Republican Party the party most favored by Hispanics.

Oh, it's absolutely idealistic.

As I said...I think the message sent last night through basically the re-election of pretty much the same government everyone was bitching about before is that by and large the American People either want:

1) Gridlock, with neither side being able to push as far to the left/right that their parties representatives would allow them to go

OR

2) For both sides to make honest and forthright TRUE efforts to seek out bipartisan, collaborative, solutions....not Republican solutions with some scraps of democratic ideas thrown in, or Democratic solutions with scraps of republican ideas thrown in, but unique solutions built upon whatever common ground the two sides can find on an issue and begin from there.

What I posted, to me...was an example of the TYPE of compromise I think is needed to achieve that. The "Win / Win" style of compromise rather than the "Lose / Lose" or "Draw" style that is more commonly thought about when you hear the word "compromise" used today. Do I think it's likely to happen? No...not at all...I don't think EITHER side will go for that right now because politically it is the more difficult of the two viable methods I posted above.
 
Let me try to take an example that I think SHOULD be reasonable if both sides are able to give a bit and compromse.

Immigration. Specifically, looking at children brought here illegally.

Republicans don't want to simply give them free citizenship, free government services, or "reward" them with citizenship for doing something that is viewed as a privilege (college) or simply common sense necessary for survival (having a job). They want to see people here illegally go to the back of the line in terms of getting legal citizenship rights.

Democrats don't want children brought here by their parents to essentially suffer the sins of the parents and wish to give them a method in which they can, relatively speaking, easily gain citizenship in a manner that doesn't require them to self-deport. They would like to see people have some kind of pathway to citizenship.

A compromise type law that would provide some "wins" for both sides could be something like this...

A law that institutes the Military side of the Dream Act, allowing those over 18 and brought here illegally to enter into a standard military service contract and provisional citizenship that, upon completion of their initial service, becomes full citizenship. To be able to enter into such a program, their immediate relatives must come forward with them. Their records will be checked, and if they have no criminal record and are gainfully employed they will be allowed to stay in this country for the length of their childs military service in a way similar to our Work Visa (IE, not eligible for the various civil services, etc) during which they can apply to become a permanent citizen. During this time period, 2% of their salary and their child's military salary is garnished by the government as penalty for the illegal entry into the country. Additionally, the business in which they are gainfully employed will be tagged for an automatic check of their employee records for any other illegal workers they may have in their employee.

This would do a few things...

For Republicans:
- It's not allowing citizenship "For free", or "for doing something that's a privledge", or for doing something that's a "basic need to survive" but rather by putting their life at risk serving this country. This provides military manpower AND will help facilitate further "assimilation" into the American Culture by instilling a military mentality into the individuals

- The requirement of the immediate family coming forward allows us to identify and track more of the illegal population in this country. The designation as a Guest Worker allows a trackable method to check in terms of their attempted use of public services, and the garnished wages help provide a "punishment" for the illegal activity while also provide revenue. The fact they are "Guest Workers" doesn't give them a vote, and they don't get any enhanced movement up the line towards citizenship.

- The requirement to automatically trigger a check on the place of business allows us to crack down on businesses propagating the support of illegal immigration by hiring them, and potentially discovering a large group of illegals to remove from the country.

For Democrats:
- Children of illegals gain a way in which they can become a citizen of this country without having to leave and come back. They also, through access to the military, become eligible for additional government programs to assist them with furthering their education after their military service if they so choose.

- The Parents of said child get to stay in the country their child is putting their life on the line for, and attempt to gain citizenship without returning to their original country.

- Business owners are who are paying their individuals under the table, potentially paying inhumane low wages and who are not paying the appropriate government taxes in order to line their own pockets, are able to be discovered and dealt with.


To me, this is the type of compromise that SHOULD be able to work.

Democrats have to give up some of the SPECIFICS of how they want to accomplish some of their goals (provide citizenship to the children of illegals, provide expedited path to citizenship to illegals) or accept that they can't go to the EXTENT they want right this moment (ALL illegals), but their general goals are met at least for some of the population and that's better than not being met at all.

Republicans have to give up some of the SPECIFICS of how they want to accomplish some of their goals (no easy/free citizenship, get illegals out of the country) or accept that they can't go to the EXTENT they want right this moment (ALL illegals need to leave the country), but their general goals are met at least for some of the population and that's better than not being met at all.

This is a different sort of compromise than saying "Look...YOU vote for the Dream Act as it stands, and we'll vote for a border fence". In that situation, one side is having to go along with something that when taken in total actually goes strongly against some of their goals and the other side is then having to do the same. In the situation I stated above, I think it's more of a case of looking at what both sides want to get out of a situation, and attempting to find a THIRD solution that satisfies goals from each without largely stepping on the goals of each as well. Would both sides like MORE? Sure. But compared to status quo, it would be a net gain for both where as the traditional style "compromise" that is talked about currently is more of trading in a net wash (status quo) for a net wash (one thing you love / one thing you hate) which is also a net wash.

This doesnt sound bad to me at all but im an independent.

I only have one question really.

you said:

A law that institutes the Military side of the Dream Act, allowing those over 18 and brought here illegally to enter into a standard military service contract and provisional citizenship that, upon completion of their initial service, becomes full citizenship. To be able to enter into such a program, their immediate relatives must come forward with them. Their records will be checked, and if they have no criminal record and are gainfully employed they will be allowed to stay in this country for the length of their childs military service in a way similar to our Work Visa (IE, not eligible for the various civil services, etc) during which they can apply to become a permanent citizen. During this time period, 2% of their salary and their child's military salary is garnished by the government as penalty for the illegal entry into the country. Additionally, the business in which they are gainfully employed will be tagged for an automatic check of their employee records for any other illegal workers they may have in their employee.
first I agree that business that hire illegals need put in check but as far as the person you are talking about do you mean the "and" part? they have to not be a criminal AND gainfully employed?
How do you define gainfully?
just asking because if they are an illegal that might be hard depending on your definition of gainfully.

Next if you go after these business (which we should) he might not admit he has a job there and/or by default depending on how you define gainful by its going to get harder and harder for him to get a job or someone to supply him with one. (which it SHOULD be)

But let me be clear, business employing illegals need dealt with and I don think it should be easy for illegals to come get a job but my point is, by circumstances if you mean the "and" you are setting up an act that wont work or "shouldnt" work by defualt.

he shouldnt have gainful employment is what im saying

DO you understand what I mean? not sure i explained that well or maybe its me that missed something.
 
Oh, it's absolutely idealistic.

As I said...I think the message sent last night through basically the re-election of pretty much the same government everyone was bitching about before is that by and large the American People either want:

1) Gridlock, with neither side being able to push as far to the left/right that their parties representatives would allow them to go

OR

2) For both sides to make honest and forthright TRUE efforts to seek out bipartisan, collaborative, solutions....not Republican solutions with some scraps of democratic ideas thrown in, or Democratic solutions with scraps of republican ideas thrown in, but unique solutions built upon whatever common ground the two sides can find on an issue and begin from there.

What I posted, to me...was an example of the TYPE of compromise I think is needed to achieve that. The "Win / Win" style of compromise rather than the "Lose / Lose" or "Draw" style that is more commonly thought about when you hear the word "compromise" used today. Do I think it's likely to happen? No...not at all...I don't think EITHER side will go for that right now because politically it is the more difficult of the two viable methods I posted above.

My response would be that Democrats should give Republicans a favorable immigration reform (one that would allow them to be competitive with culturally conservative Hispanics in decades to come) if Republicans give Democrats a favorable tax reform.

As unwilling as the Democratic Party is to give up its Hispanic advantage, the Republicans are far less willing to surrender the supremacy of the financing sector and its special interests that have dominated this country's policies for over thirty years.
 
Will he live up to it?

We want our kids to grow up in a country where they have access to the best schools and the best teachers.

Shouldn't have voted for you then.

A country that lives up to its legacy as the global leader in technology and discovery and innovation, with all the good jobs and new businesses that follow.

Definitely shouldn't have voted for you then.

We want our children to live in an America that isn’t burdened by debt

Uh...lol.

We believe in a generous America, in a compassionate America, in a tolerant America, open to the dreams of an immigrant’s daughter who studies in our schools and pledges to our flag. To the young boy on the south side of Chicago who sees a life beyond the nearest street corner. To the furniture worker’s child in North Carolina who wants to become a doctor or a scientist, an engineer or an entrepreneur, a diplomat or even a president — that’s the future we hope for. That’s the vision we share. That’s where we need to go — forward. That’s where we need to go.

There is no way you want them to grow up to be a doctor if you're gung-ho about Obamacare. You're going to create a system where people have zero desire to go into the medical field. But hey - keep telling yourself that.

Our economy is recovering.

It's recovering insofar that he took an awful economy and made it, somehow, even worse...and it's bouncing back from this new all-time low. I guess you could argue that he's living up to this.

I am looking forward to reaching out and working with leaders of both parties to meet the challenges we can only solve together. Reducing our deficit. Reforming our tax code. Fixing our immigration system. Freeing ourselves from foreign oil. We’ve got more work to do.

At this point in the speech, he's starting to look like a cartoon character when saying this with a straight face.

It goes on and on, but I've reached my daily limit of banality.

So will he live up to his victory speech? Yeah...uh...no.
 
There is no way you want them to grow up to be a doctor if you're gung-ho about Obamacare. You're going to create a system where people have zero desire to go into the medical field. But hey - keep telling yourself that.

Europe has a competitive number of doctors.
 
ummm...

You DO know that Obama only got 50% of the popular vote...right? The "old, rich, religious, white guy GOP platform" got the other 50%.

Liberal hyperbole is alive and well...even after it won.

Who's ass are you pulling the numbers out of? You are wrong. Your percentages are wrong. Your attitude is acerbic and mouthy.
 
Morality Games said:
Europe has a competitive number of doctors.

What ratio of doctor/populace are you identifying as "competitive"?
 
first I agree that business that hire illegals need put in check but as far as the person you are talking about do you mean the "and" part? they have to not be a criminal AND gainfully employed?
How do you define gainfully?
just asking because if they are an illegal that might be hard depending on your definition of gainfully.

Thanks for the question. Gotta love the issues of writing something up on the fly.

I would suggest in terms of the criminal record, it'd be looking for any misdemeanor/felony violations of the law that aren't directly related to the fact their illegal.

Being illegally employed and working in the US is illegal because they're here illegally, that wouldn't count because if they were here legally there would be no criminal act going on.

On the flip side, if they...I don't know, lets say a DUI (not sure if that's actually criminal)...then that would count because their status as an illegal alien has nothing to do with the action being illegal.

Make sense?

"Gainfully employed" would basically be "have a job" of some kind. I'd probably actually require it to be that one parent have a job (so no, if the dad works and the mother doesn't, the mother doesn't get the boot).

Next if you go after these business (which we should) he might not admit he has a job there and/or by default depending on how you define gainful by its going to get harder and harder for him to get a job or someone to supply him with one. (which it SHOULD be)

Absolutely! This is part of fulfilling Republican goals. You're not going to get to stay here for free...essentially, you get to stay but on the flip side it allows us to likely remove others. The parents don't have to give up their employer...but if they choose not to give up their employer, they're going to have to get out of the country because they're not going to qualify to be in the Guest Worker type program. So it's basically a give and take so that both sides get some of what they want.

The honest hope, of course, is that the crack down on businesses will cause it to be harder to be here illegally which will decrease the illegal aliens coming in making this program become less and less needed while providing some help for those children who were already brought over.

I get what you mean and I guess "gainfully" probably should just be stripped away and replaced with "employed"...or even showing some sort of income to highlight that the individual does at least have some skills or ability to actively work and sustain themselves in some fashion.
 
Barack Obama is the most divisive figure in America. At the end of the day, we're in exactly the same place we were two weeks ago. Republican/Tea Party controlled House, Democratic Senate, and Obama.

Same input, same output. More gridlock in Washington. More bickering, and nothing getting done for 2 years until the next senatorial races.

I still think he has a way to go to catch of with the decider. However, I think some introspection by those who hate him with such passion might be beneficial. Just saying.
 
Who's ass are you pulling the numbers out of? You are wrong. Your percentages are wrong. Your attitude is acerbic and mouthy.

sigh...

Okay, if you want to get nitpicky, Obama got 50.4%...Romney got 48.1% (at last count by HuffPo)

My point still stands.

Face it...this election was, by no means, a ringing endorsement for Obama by the American People. He won by the skin of his teeth and skillful campaign strategy.
 
What ratio of doctor/populace are you identifying as "competitive"?

Their society isn't spiraling into third-world living standards due to doctor shortages.
 
I never meant to imply that America would suddenly grow collectively sick and die. I am hesitant, however, to give up my excellent health care and have it downgraded to "decent" or "acceptable" like I would qualify European health care to be. This is especially so when I consider the reason(s) that I have to give it up.
 
Thanks for the question. Gotta love the issues of writing something up on the fly.

I would suggest in terms of the criminal record, it'd be looking for any misdemeanor/felony violations of the law that aren't directly related to the fact their illegal.

Being illegally employed and working in the US is illegal because they're here illegally, that wouldn't count because if they were here legally there would be no criminal act going on.

On the flip side, if they...I don't know, lets say a DUI (not sure if that's actually criminal)...then that would count because their status as an illegal alien has nothing to do with the action being illegal.

Make sense?

"Gainfully employed" would basically be "have a job" of some kind. I'd probably actually require it to be that one parent have a job (so no, if the dad works and the mother doesn't, the mother doesn't get the boot).



Absolutely! This is part of fulfilling Republican goals. You're not going to get to stay here for free...essentially, you get to stay but on the flip side it allows us to likely remove others. The parents don't have to give up their employer...but if they choose not to give up their employer, they're going to have to get out of the country because they're not going to qualify to be in the Guest Worker type program. So it's basically a give and take so that both sides get some of what they want.

The honest hope, of course, is that the crack down on businesses will cause it to be harder to be here illegally which will decrease the illegal aliens coming in making this program become less and less needed while providing some help for those children who were already brought over.

I get what you mean and I guess "gainfully" probably should just be stripped away and replaced with "employed"...or even showing some sort of income to highlight that the individual does at least have some skills or ability to actively work and sustain themselves in some fashion.

ahhhh I got it now and i pretty much agree.
I guess where the confusing came in was on my part also. I was thinking "continuous" system but in actuality this system would have a limited shelf life by default. WHICH IM TOTALLY COOL WITH.

Eventually, its cuts down on illegals by default and bushiness that will employee them forcing people to do it the proper way in the future or simply be deported.

I get it now and i Like it.
 
Did the libs introspect concerning their hatred of Bush?

I still think he has a way to go to catch of with the decider. However, I think some introspection by those who hate him with such passion might be beneficial. Just saying.
 
I never meant to imply that America would suddenly grow collectively sick and die. I am hesitant, however, to give up my excellent health care and have it downgraded to "decent" or "acceptable" like I would qualify European health care to be. This is especially so when I consider the reason(s) that I have to give it up.

Don't think premium service vanish in any case, so it isn't a problem.

I'm also leery of the idea that American health care provides consistently great service. Our doctors are the best trained but that only matters to the extent they put all their effort into their work, something they aren't really required to do to make the living that they do. In fact, healing someone isn't necessarily the most profitable treatment.
 
Morality Games said:
Don't think premium service vanish in any case, so it isn't a problem.

I beg to differ. I think if some of the main parts of Obamacare were given more leeway, there would be room to maintain service. However, as it's written, it's going to come to a time where it will be like Canada, and holding private insurance is not only frowned upon, but actually illegal.

I'm also leery of the idea that American health care provides great service. Our doctors are the best trained but that only matters to the extent they put all their effort into their work, something they aren't really required to do to make the living that they do.

It provides excellent service, but often falls behind in ratings of world health care because they measure health care as a national aggregate as opposed to using the population with reasonable access to health care. If you have 25 million people without care, on their charts, your quality of service falls. It shouldn't. They should use the sample populace of those who can actually go to doctors on private care. If that happened, I would bet that they'd be on the list somewhere below Cuba and a few Asian nations, and comfortably over a good majority of the world.
 
I voted other.
He will live up to some points and other points he will fail. Thats just how it is for any president. The economy will slowly get better.
 
Of course not. He didn't live up to his campaign promises in 2008, why would we expect any better from 2012?

Like all politicians, Obama is a lying sleazeball.
 
I will agree that his first term was not one of continuity, but I will say that when somebody says something you give them the benefit of the doubt. I think this election humbled him, and showed him that he is not as loved and not as many people have bought into him as before and I think he takes it upon himself to change that. Of course I have certainly been wrong before :)
 
Did the libs introspect concerning their hatred of Bush?

I hope so. I never hated Bush myself, but I do acknowledge the damage he did. And I distinctly recall him, after winning a close relection, announcing he had a mandate and moving on without much effort at compromise. I hope Obama doesn't make that msitake. And I hope republicans stop trying to derail him for their own political gain.
 
I hope there is no compromise.

I hope so. I never hated Bush myself, but I do acknowledge the damage he did. And I distinctly recall him, after winning a close relection, announcing he had a mandate and moving on without much effort at compromise. I hope Obama doesn't make that msitake. And I hope republicans stop trying to derail him for their own political gain.
 
And I hope republicans stop trying to derail him for their own political gain.

You mean like the Democrats do every time there's a Republican in the White House?
 
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