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The Future of The USA

If you had to choose and these were the only options available, which of the followin

  • Total voters
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Pay people a salary to go to college or get other job training and you will develop your most talented instead of the useless rich kids and people afraid to grow up that you get in college now. By this full development of the most potentially productive human resources, you will create enough wealth to finance the best military and the most generous social services. No one offers us this option, yet they make sure they get the best athletic talent developed the same way, so they know how to get this done. The reason the rich parasites brainwash people that sucking your thumb in college, working without pay and living like a 15-year-old is an achievement to be proud of is that they, meaning the only people with power and influence in this country, gain all their wealth by turning superior talent into wimps who won't rebel against their employers stealing most of what they produce.
 
Don't know. We cannot know until we know who will be Pres and what the make up of Congress will be. After Tomorrow, I may be able to give you a better prediction.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Option B:
Being among the top 10 economic forces in the world.
Slightly decreasing the disadvantage of those born into poor families.
Free access to only the most minimal health care for the poor.
Free access to no more than secondary education for the poor.
Food and shelter safety nets that serve only to keep people alive.
Being among the top 10 military powers in the world.
Everyone pays the same percentage of their income in taxes.
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I could see why this would sound appealing to people, but some of these outcomes are ill-conceived. "Only the most minimal" health care always ends up extending to "any hospital care" given that hospital care is all based on "medical necessity." One thing that might save this option would be the flat income tax. As long as that policy was held to even if the other outcomes were becoming hard/impossible to achieve, then it might still be a workable system.

Option C:
Being among the top 50% of the economic forces in the world.
Almost complete removal of the disadvantage of those born into poor families.
Free access to quality health care for the poor.
Free access to all schooling levels and all schools for those capable of completing the coursework.
Food and shelter safety nets that serve to allow equal physical health.
Being among the top 50% of military forces in the world.
Progressive taxation is applied without loopholes.
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There is no way to remove the disadvantage of those born into poor families, because the disadvantages are much more complex and pervasive than just money. There is no way to grant free access to anything without affecting its quality. There is no benefit to giving people free education of any kind based only on whether they can survive the coursework, because education is an investment and covering the entire cost of the investment for someone else encourages malinvestment. There is no way to provide food and shelter such that equal physical health is achieved.

Option D:
Unknown world economic power status.
Enforcing equality of outcome (not to be confused with equality of opportunity).
Unknown world military power status.
Taxes are decided based on the amount needed to create equality of outcome.
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Cue Orwellian dystopian stories. Also, Option D is really just a paraphrase of Option C.
 
Given the extreme hatred between the conservatives and the extreme-right extra-terrestrial nutters, civil war seems the best you can hope for.
 
There never is and never will be free education or free healthcare. It is simply a matter of hiding who is paying for it through government. So B and C are right out. D is a failed totalitarian nightmare - the nations who have tried it have inevitably spun into poverty and wreckage. So I guess I'm left with A.
 
DaveFagan said:
That's simply not true. America has the most expensive medical care anywhere and it is not the best. It was the best in the past, but most of us don't live in the past. Now, if you have big money, you may be able to get the best medical care in the world in the USA, but that is not what you said.
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That is not correct - the US does indeed have the best medical care available in the world - which is why people come here. We simply pay for it through a flawed third-party-payment model, which makes it more expensive than necessary.
 
celticwar17 said:
America has the best medical care anywhere, sure it's very expensive, but it's doesn't suffer the wait-times and lack of freedom other countries do. I didn't mention Healthcare cause you didn't in the post I was replying to.
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Here is just one source that ranks the quality of healthcare in each country. It turns out that there are countries with far better healthcare systems than even Canada and the USA is 37th at least. So clearly there are some other systems that are working better.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
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See source below:

World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems | thepatientfactor.com

At least we are among the top 50 in the world ;)
 
celticwar17 said:
And on the culture thing, How is that relevant to what I said or what the thread is about? I honestly lost track lol
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I think you were trying to say that poverty is a cultural based thing and that is why it can't be fixed. To which I responded that if the right people are involved, cultural issues can be changed to; they're not set in stone.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Here is just one source that ranks the quality of healthcare in each country. It turns out that there are countries with far better healthcare systems than even Canada and the USA is 37th at least. So clearly there are some other systems that are working better.


At least we are among the top 50 in the world ;)
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This article doesn't mention the method in which it ranks the healthcare systems.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I think you were trying to say that poverty is a cultural based thing and that is why it can't be fixed. To which I responded that if the right people are involved, cultural issues can be changed to; they're not set in stone.
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I was specifically saying our lack of good scores of test's is a culturally based thing. I talking our education system specifically. And I somewhat agree that it is possible to correct culturally based issues, but it is a very difficult feat that will take decades to do with the big possibility of not even working or working efficiently.
 
Neomalthusian said:
I could see why this would sound appealing to people, but some of these outcomes are ill-conceived. "Only the most minimal" health care always ends up extending to "any hospital care" given that hospital care is all based on "medical necessity." One thing that might save this option would be the flat income tax. As long as that policy was held to even if the other outcomes were becoming hard/impossible to achieve, then it might still be a workable system.
Click to expand...

I agree, although a flat tax would cripple the working class

Neomalthusian said:
There is no way to remove the disadvantage of those born into poor families, because the disadvantages are much more complex and pervasive than just money.
Click to expand...

I problem being complicated does not make it impossible to solve ;)

Neomalthusian said:
There is no way to grant free access to anything without affecting its quality.
Click to expand...

All the more reason to institute competition within the system by allowing people to choose different options.

Neomalthusian said:
There is no benefit to giving people free education of any kind based only on whether they can survive the coursework, because education is an investment and covering the entire cost of the investment for someone else encourages malinvestment.
Click to expand...

Is this how it works with athletes that are farmed? Why don't I just quote what someone else has said.

PrometheusBound said:
Pay people a salary to go to college or get other job training and you will develop your most talented instead of the useless rich kids and people afraid to grow up that you get in college now. By this full development of the most potentially productive human resources, you will create enough wealth to finance the best military and the most generous social services. No one offers us this option, yet they make sure they get the best athletic talent developed the same way, so they know how to get this done. The reason the rich parasites brainwash people that sucking your thumb in college, working without pay and living like a 15-year-old is an achievement to be proud of is that they, meaning the only people with power and influence in this country, gain all their wealth by turning superior talent into wimps who won't rebel against their employers stealing most of what they produce.
Click to expand...

Neomalthusian said:
There is no way to provide food and shelter such that equal physical health is achieved.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that all we have to do is get health experts involved in the process and we should be on our way. I am not under and false beliefs that a system could do something perfectly; instead this is a set of guidelines and things to strive for - say, hitting the goals by 90%

Neomalthusian said:
Cue Orwellian dystopian stories. Also, Option D is really just a paraphrase of Option C.
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Lol, kinda had a feeling you'd say that. Why is it that so many people confuse true equality of opportunity with equality of outcome?
 
cpwill said:
There never is and never will be free education or free healthcare. It is simply a matter of hiding who is paying for it through government. So B and C are right out. D is a failed totalitarian nightmare - the nations who have tried it have inevitably spun into poverty and wreckage. So I guess I'm left with A.
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I agree that D wouldn't work.

However, by free, obviously I meant, at no immediate cost to the patient or scholar etc. :); the cost is absorbed by the higher income levels - not including actual small businesses and people (not companies) making below 250K - I do agree with that income level marker from the left
 
Paul Austin said:
Perhaps you should pay more attention to your source those figures are 15 years old & based on self reporting.
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Show me the proof with a quote please ;) - please provide a list that says something else as well ;) - otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time
 
celticwar17 said:
This article doesn't mention the method in which it ranks the healthcare systems.
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It's from the world healthcare organization, so I imagine it uses their stated methods - besides you and I both know that the US has not been at the top of healthcare rankings ;)

Instead of poking holes in evidence... provide evidence of your own that is counter to the evidence I provided - that would be a much more useful way to spend your time - perhaps you won't find anything though... we'll have to see I guess
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Show me the proof with a quote please ;) - please provide a list that says something else as well ;) - otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time
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Like I said check your own source, its written on the page you linked.
 
celticwar17 said:
I was specifically saying our lack of good scores of test's is a culturally based thing. I talking our education system specifically. And I somewhat agree that it is possible to correct culturally based issues, but it is a very difficult feat that will take decades to do with the big possibility of not even working or working efficiently.
Click to expand...

Most culture is a way of dealing with the environment and options that are available to a group of people; education and religion also have an effect. Tackle as many of those areas as you can and you'll make progress. These are just a few ways of addressing the problem.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I agree, although a flat tax would cripple the working class
Click to expand...

The taxation isn't really the thing that does the crippling, but I can let this one go.

I problem being complicated does not make it impossible to solve ;)
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I will grant this as true, but warn you that to truly erase the disadvantage of being born into some families would require such extreme restrictions on liberty that no one would accept it (for example, loss of reproductive freedom).

All the more reason to institute competition within the system by allowing people to choose different options.
Click to expand...

That's not the sort of competition that controls price while keeping quality up, because it's still being covered for them (no cost containment incentive).

Is this how it works with athletes that are farmed? Why don't I just quote what someone else has said.
PrometheusBound said:
Pay people a salary to go to college or get other job training and you will develop your most talented instead of the useless rich kids and people afraid to grow up that you get in college now. By this full development of the most potentially productive human resources, you will create enough wealth to finance the best military and the most generous social services. No one offers us this option, yet they make sure they get the best athletic talent developed the same way, so they know how to get this done. The reason the rich parasites brainwash people that sucking your thumb in college, working without pay and living like a 15-year-old is an achievement to be proud of is that they, meaning the only people with power and influence in this country, gain all their wealth by turning superior talent into wimps who won't rebel against their employers stealing most of what they produce.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Prometheus' response was the most asinine of any of them. You come up with the most financially nonviable notions anyone could ever dream of. Step One -- give people a bunch of money (whose money are we giving them, btw?). Step Two -- reap the reward of having created wealth for all. Unfathomably dumb.

It seems to me that all we have to do is get health experts involved in the process and we should be on our way.
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Haha, they already are! They are unique in that their expertise is imperative to create the system, yet they also profit from the system. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

Lol, kinda had a feeling you'd say that. Why is it that so many people confuse true equality of opportunity with equality of outcome?
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There's no confusion. "True equality" has never existed and can never exist. The attempt to achieve it anyway is based on fantasy (even if Orwellian). You simply can't control all of everyone's independent choices, but you'd have to try if you were insistent on creating "true equality of outcome."
 
Paul Austin said:
Like I said check your own source, its written on the page you linked.
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Already checked; the date doesn't appear to be on that page - cute that you didn't quote it though aye?

Also, all the comments to the list are from 2010... see the following:

Blake Taylor says:
November 29, 2010 at 9:16 pm

France’s excellence in health care delivery is probably due to two major factors: 1) it is extraordinarily open and communicative with patients and families which reaps significant patient safety benefits; and 2) it has far more doctors per capita so physicians want patients and patients get a choice.
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World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems | thepatientfactor.com

Just waiting for you to actually give a quoted example - then please provide an updated one ;)
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Already checked; the date doesn't appear to be on that page - cute that you didn't quote it though aye?
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Pay more attention & you'll find the answers.

Just waiting for you to actually give a quoted example - then please provide an updated one ;)
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Sorry, you may be used to your mother wiping your backside for you but Im not your mother.

Why should I research YOUR claims for YOU?
 
Your medical system is insanely expensive because you think profit matters more than life. Bad plan for ordinary people, not followed in civilized countries,
 
Neomalthusian said:
The taxation isn't really the thing that does the crippling, but I can let this one go.
Click to expand...

Good

Neomalthusian said:
I will grant this as true, but warn you that to truly erase the disadvantage of being born into some families would require such extreme restrictions on liberty that no one would accept it (for example, loss of reproductive freedom).
Click to expand...

That's a little apocalyptic isn't it? Why not think creatively... see some of my other posts on the subject


Neomalthusian said:
That's not the sort of competition that controls price while keeping quality up, because it's still being covered for them (no cost containment incentive).
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If companies are making a certain amount of profit per patient, it makes logical sense that if they had more patients their profits would go up ;)

Neomalthusian said:
Prometheus' response was the most asinine of any of them. You come up with the most financially nonviable notions anyone could ever dream of. Step One -- give people a bunch of money (whose money are we giving them, btw?). Step Two -- reap the reward of having created wealth for all. Unfathomably dumb.
Click to expand...

If people and their talents are valuable like athletes are, why wouldn't it be a good thing?

Neomalthusian said:
Haha, they already are! They are unique in that their expertise is imperative to create the system, yet they also profit from the system. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we need to find independent and/or elected officials?

Neomalthusian said:
There's no confusion. "True equality" has never existed and can never exist. The attempt to achieve it anyway is based on fantasy (even if Orwellian). You simply can't control all of everyone's independent choices, but you'd have to try if you were insistent on creating "true equality of outcome."
Click to expand...

Again, you've confused "true equality of opportunity" with "true equality of outcome".... how do you guys keep getting those ideas confused?
 
Paul Austin said:
Pay more attention & you'll find the answers.

Sorry, you may be used to your mother wiping your backside for you but Im not your mother.

Why should I research YOUR claims for YOU?
Click to expand...

Cop out answer if I've ever seen one; why don't you back up your claims... or do you not have any claims?

And again, I gave evidence in the prior post that showed the likelihood of those numbers being up to date

Are you ready to begin actual debating, or just continuing with non-productive poo flinging?
 
Penderyn said:
Your medical system is insanely expensive because you think profit matters more than life. Bad plan for ordinary people, not followed in civilized countries,
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This is not a bad point - profits are important, but not all important
 
MusicAdventurer said:
That's a little apocalyptic isn't it? Why not think creatively... see some of my other posts on the subject
Click to expand...

It's a monumental task to purport to undertake (erasing the disadvantage of being born into an incompetent family). I do think creatively, but have to admit that the effective solutions are oppressive. I know about the horrors of the fetal alcohol spectrum, the impact of physical, emotional and sexual abuse, of growing up in a drug-abusing home, et cetera. I have thought creatively about how to stamp that out. "Providing education" doesn't do squat. You have to get serious if you really care to achieve that goal (erasing the disadvantage of being born to incompetents). Getting serious means getting oppressive.

If companies are making a certain amount of profit per patient, it makes logical sense that if they had more patients their profits would go up ;)
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I don't think you're understanding all the aspects of that issue, given how simply you're looking at it.

If people and their talents are valuable like athletes are, why wouldn't it be a good thing?
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Absolutely, except that it's financially nonviable to pour resources into everyone when 0.00001% of them will become valuable to the degree that athletes are. The reason not everyone is successful has relatively little to do with being too dumb/uneducated, and a lot more to do with the supply of and demand for expert labor.

Again, you've confused "true equality of opportunity" with "true equality of outcome".... how do you guys keep getting those ideas confused?
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Well apparently it's because you move the goalposts.

MusicAdventurer said:
Option D
Taxes are decided based on the amount needed to create equality of outcome.
Click to expand...
 
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