View Poll Results: If you had to choose and these were the only options available, which of the followin

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  • Option A

    19 43.18%
  • Option B

    8 18.18%
  • Option C

    16 36.36%
  • Option D

    1 2.27%
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Thread: The Future of The USA

  1. #41
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    OK, so what of the lifeboat? Did you refuse to engage in that too?
    No, I have no problem with answering ethical dilemmas. I have however pointed out that there are many fallacies in the classical lifeboat dilemma which take it out of the realm of reality and make it an abstract hypothetical, such as the lifeboat captain's inability to predict the future accurately (ie he has no way of knowing if the boat will sink before rescue arrives with any certainty.)

    But yes, if I had to play Chooser of the Slain I can do it. In response to another question of ethics in another thread, I replied plainly that my priorities are clear: I'd shoot a stranger who was threatening my friend; I shoot my friend if he threatened my sister; I'd shoot my sister if she threatened my son or myself. My valuation of people is admittedly subjective, I value immediate family most of all, friends second, acquaintances third. The value of a stranger to me depends on a variety of things, including gender and age as well as utility and behavior. I value the life of the innocent over the guilty; as a societal and biological imperative I value children and women of reproductive age more than others. I value a fellow American more than most foreigners, and a friendly foreigner more than a hostile one.

    I have no problems with hard choices. I just dislike having my options limited in an unrealistic manner.


    I can see where what I said may have offended you and for that I apologize; however, I believe there is some truth to what I am saying. That is, what I am asking is a difficult question to answer. There isn't much precedence to rely on; one must rely on their own hard-set values and then rationalize those in a manner that is socially acceptable. Its complicated.
    It's fine. I just disagree with your assessments of our options, in particular how far "down" we'd have to sink to do this or that. I prefer to stick with options/questions that are IMO more closely tied to reality.

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    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  2. #42
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    ....take it out of the realm of reality and make it an abstract hypothetical....
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It's fine. I just disagree with your assessments of our options, in particular how far "down" we'd have to sink to do this or that. I prefer to stick with options/questions that are IMO more closely tied to reality.
    That's fine if you don't want to engage in a hypothetical conversation. Please don't believe that I am convinced that these are our exact options. Instead, look at it as a way to respond to a problem. That is, to decide what you would do if these were the only options. Its just a starting point; that's all.

  3. #43
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Put up a better set of options and we may get somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Not ignoring it means it struck something that made you want to reply.
    Yes, that you gave us a poor set of choices.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  4. #44
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    ....take it out of the realm of reality and make it an abstract hypothetical....
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It's fine. I just disagree with your assessments of our options, in particular how far "down" we'd have to sink to do this or that. I prefer to stick with options/questions that are IMO more closely tied to reality.
    That's fine if you don't want to engage in a hypothetical conversation. Please don't believe that I am convinced that these are our exact options. Instead, look at it as a way to respond to a problem. That is, to decide what you would do if these were the only options. Its just a starting point; that's all.

  5. #45
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    Put up a better set of options and we may get somewhere.


    Yes, that you gave us a poor set of choices.
    Hey, no one said making priority type situations was going to be easy

  6. #46
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    None of the above but of the options you gave, D is the worst and would justify armed rebellion. C is unworkable because if the USA is merely in the top half in the world there is not going to be the finances necessary to pay for the stuff you have for the poor. A or B might be tolerable
    I like the voting in proportion to taxes paid but its not ever going to happen. That leaves B

  7. #47
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    That's fine if you don't want to engage in a hypothetical conversation. Please don't believe that I am convinced that these are our exact options. Instead, look at it as a way to respond to a problem. That is, to decide what you would do if these were the only options. Its just a starting point; that's all.

    I expressed what I though we could do. We can make huge cuts in domestic Federal spending, and large cuts in military spending, and still have good social programs and the best military in the world and STILL balance the budget, IF we get rid of the waste, pork, fraud and general crap that exists among those two budget categories.

    It will mean hardship for some areas, closing military bases we don't need and not building another 1000 tanks this year unless we actually need 1000 new tanks. It will be hard on some politicians who won't get to bring home the Federal bacon in the form of money for local stuff that doesn't really help the poor a lot but does bring some business to local contractors. However it can be done, if the political will existed to really reform government spending and cut those bloated, frequently useless non-results-producting, often-needlessly duplicated bureacratic empires down to a lean efficient machine.

    The hard part about that is that I serious doubt the political will exists to do it... too many pockets being lined, too many politicians depending on pork for reelection.

    Short version, the real world often sucks more than any hypothetical dilemma.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #48
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    I believe the presumptions of the poll are exactly wrong.

    To be MOST charitable to our own people, we also must be as wealthy a nation as possible.

    Increased charity/welfare by declining economic national wealthy is an impossibility.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    None of the above but of the options you gave, D is the worst and would justify armed rebellion. C is unworkable because if the USA is merely in the top half in the world there is not going to be the finances necessary to pay for the stuff you have for the poor. A or B might be tolerable
    I like the voting in proportion to taxes paid but its not ever going to happen. That leaves B
    Wow, I never thought I'd be happy to see a post from you TDude lol... unlike others, you actually worked through the different options and realized that none are perfect, but at least one is the most preferable, that is, choosing the greater of 4 evils

    I would have to disagree with your position on proportional taxes though

  10. #50
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I believe the presumptions of the poll are exactly wrong.

    To be MOST charitable to our own people, we also must be as wealthy a nation as possible.

    Increased charity/welfare by declining economic national wealthy is an impossibility.
    Its like that advertisement that Immigrant-billionaire Thomas Pefferry (sp) has put up

    Under socialism, the rich are poorer but so are the poor. Its the rich who take care of the poor. want the poor to have better handouts, support the creation of more wealthy people

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