View Poll Results: If you had to choose and these were the only options available, which of the followin

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  • Option A

    19 43.18%
  • Option B

    8 18.18%
  • Option C

    16 36.36%
  • Option D

    1 2.27%
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Thread: The Future of The USA

  1. #171
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    I voted for option A.

    It basically says that USA is leading superpower, votes are leaned towards the rich that mostly contribute with taxes, and limits access to education and access to healthcare to the ones that have not. Basically to hell with the people as long as the rich stay rich and USA is no 1 (how this can stand in itself is a question, but moving on).
    So just to verify, you chose the following course for the USA?

    Option A:
    Being number one in the world economy.

    Increasing the current disadvantage of those born into poor families.

    No free access to healthcare.

    No free access to any level of education.

    No food and shelter safety nets.

    Being number one in military power.

    Voting power is decided by the level of monetary contributions in taxes.


    Why so? Why do you think it is so beneficial for the US for it to be the #1 economy and military power over all other concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Now I am not saying that I voted for this because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages because I am not an American (thereby the disadvantages do not strike me, I continue having access to healthcare and education, while you do not). What I am saying is that the disadvantages could be mitigated for Americans could find free access to healthcare and especially education here in Europe instead.
    How would that work? Then they wouldn't be Americans anymore, lol. They'd be Europeans... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    I hear that public university in Deutchland is free and some Americans study there. This while if they had chosen to study in Suomiland they would pay Americans to study there instead. Thus you would have the best of both worlds and what is best the two USA & EU would get to commune more with its people.
    Seriously! They pay for this! You've gotta send me a link or something. But again it seems like you are advocating for American citizens to move to Europe. Why is that?

  2. #172
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah, no. That is, in fact, rather the opposite of what you are seeking here. The natural order of things is for competition to create winners and losers, and for winners to pass on advantage to their offspring. You are trying to mitigate or obviate the "natural order of things".
    If you read my previous posts you'd understand. I am all for winners and losers. In fact I have used the analogy of a race where all racers start from the same starting line and when the race is over, we have winners, runners up, losers etc. Competition is a great and natural phenomenon, a great motivator and a great pathway to creativity and progress.

    When I refer to natural versus unnatural, I am referring to the innate versus the material. I'll have to did up the full explanation from an older post, but essentially, monetary inheritance is an unnatural inheritance/advantage, while non-monetary innate (biology) and familial (parenting) inheritance is a natural inheritance.

    The goal then is to allow things to unfold naturally for our children, by leaving natural inheritance alone and redistributing unnatural inheritance to all peers in that generation, allowing for equality of education, equality of investments etc.

    This way, we can observe and enjoy the unfolding life events that are unadulterated by would be disproportionate unnatural inheritance that would place each child at a different life race starting point. This would fix many problems that wouldn't naturally occur if it weren't for the artificiality of money. For a full explanation of the artificiality of money, especially the way in which it artificially creates wealth, that is unnatural in nature, I can dig a more thorough explanation out of some of my posts.

  3. #173
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    So just to verify, you chose the following course for the USA?

    Option A:
    Being number one in the world economy.

    Increasing the current disadvantage of those born into poor families.

    No free access to healthcare.

    No free access to any level of education.

    No food and shelter safety nets.

    Being number one in military power.

    Voting power is decided by the level of monetary contributions in taxes.


    Why so? Why do you think it is so beneficial for the US for it to be the #1 economy and military power over all other concerns?
    Two reasons. First, when one falls from 1st place they usually are kicked down. Other challengers whom USA has mingled with (some of may be outraged) would be jumping from joy to see USA fall, and might do a lot to get there.

    Secondly, if USA falls it may have influence on its allies also. So it is not only about USA but it is about its allies whom may pay the same price as USA (if not worse). Examples of such allies I think is Israel and perhaps Dardania also.

    So USA should stay 1st, but I was not alright with the disadvantages of your proposed options. I offered solutions to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    How would that work? Then they wouldn't be Americans anymore, lol. They'd be Europeans... right?
    No. The Americans that I saw that were studying in Deutchland were still Americans. The Americans that teach in Dardania are still Americans. The point is take your free (or vary available) education and go back contributing to USA being No 1. Not be European in Europe, but be European in USA instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Seriously! They pay for this! You've gotta send me a link or something.
    Yes people in Suomiland pay you to study instead. This is what a friend in Suomiland told me. Plus I saw in a Turkish documentary about this. But you do not pay for master's, and doctoral courses, for sure:

    Study In Finland - Tuition and Scholarships

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    But again it seems like you are advocating for American citizens to move to Europe. Why is that?
    Just trying to help them out with your economy and military VS (strangely!) health and education ethical dilemmas. Alternatively I sure would love to see some new faces like more from northern and west Europe (away from Balkan countries) and especially from USA around here.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  4. #174
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    If you read my previous posts you'd understand. I am all for winners and losers.
    It seems not, as you wish to constantly restart the race under the theory that some are winning too much.

    In fact I have used the analogy of a race where all racers start from the same starting line and when the race is over, we have winners, runners up, losers etc. Competition is a great and natural phenomenon, a great motivator and a great pathway to creativity and progress.

    When I refer to natural versus unnatural, I am referring to the innate versus the material. I'll have to did up the full explanation from an older post, but essentially, monetary inheritance is an unnatural inheritance/advantage, while non-monetary innate (biology) and familial (parenting) inheritance is a natural inheritance.
    On the contrary, there is no particular distinction between monetary inheritance and other forms of inheritance (such as what you seem to call "familial"). One is not any less natural than the other, and the desire to start over and remake the human race anew is a failed fantasy of bloody ideologies precisely because it so poorly correlates to the natural order of things.

    This way, we can observe and enjoy the unfolding life events that are unadulterated by would be disproportionate unnatural inheritance that would place each child at a different life race starting point. This would fix many problems that wouldn't naturally occur if it weren't for the artificiality of money. For a full explanation of the artificiality of money, especially the way in which it artificially creates wealth, that is unnatural in nature, I can dig a more thorough explanation out of some of my posts.
    We are discussing (ultimately) the passing on of the fruits of production. Whether done so in the form of M1, a farm, education, personal attention from the parent as a child during time not devoted to labor it is all that which we (naturally) pass on to our children to give them the greatest advantage possible.

  5. #175
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It seems not, as you wish to constantly restart the race under the theory that some are winning too much.
    Who said anything about restarting a race?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, there is no particular distinction between monetary inheritance and other forms of inheritance (such as what you seem to call "familial").
    So says cpwill

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    One is not any less natural than the other
    OK, I suppose I will have to spell it out for you. Do understand this, first you have to understand how money (and other non-perishable valuables such as silver and gold; for the purpose of this argument, we will just refer to them all as money) creates inflated wealth/power differentials. Without money, it would not be possible for individuals to hoard the kind of wealth that we see hoarded today. Indeed, people could only hoard no more than what they could make use of. There are many advantages to using money that make it more practical than simply trading perishable goods. However, the inflated wealth/power that occurs between the citizens as a result of the use of money is a negative side effect that needs to be accounted for.

    In the long run, without accounting for this side effect, only a few families would own all the wealth (if citizens did not revolt by that time) and everyone else would essentially become indentured servants, exploited and any wealth they would accrue would be at the mercy of those that hold the wealth. When compared to other organisms that compete with each other, there would be no comparable situation in nature. This is because in nature, without money, families rise and fall according to each generations natural skills. In nature, money is not needed for competition (and it does not exist anyway) and skill (i.e. extent to which each individual is able to adapt to its environment) determines an organisms wealth/power.

    In the US, we use the principles of evolution in economics and in social policy. That is we use capitalism. Capitalism allows competition, which is a good thing as it keeps products and services competitive. It also has a natural system of rewards and consequences that helps guide human behavior, keeping it productive and competitive. We all should understand these concepts by now, so I will not explain this further.

    As mentioned, problems arise when we use money; we've already covered how it created artificial/inflated wealth differentials. Without keeping our capitalistic system (that uses money; which we've already discovered has its negative side effects) in check, it also deviates from the natural evolutionary process that capitalism is modeled after. Why you may ask? Because while it works for competition within one generation, it begins to fail as the next generations take over. This is due to inherited monetary wealth. In essence, it doesn't allow for the individual's natural endowments to be tested in the capitalistic system. Instead, it places the individuals of each new generation at artificial (unnatural) starting points. It does not allow for the individual's natural skills and the non-monetary based (natural) parenting that may modify those skills (lets call these collectively natural inheritances) to be tested and given a value. Instead, artificial or unnatural (the terms artificial and unnatural are used interchangeably) inheritances place individuals at different levels depending on the values of their artificial inheritance, disallowing the individuals natural inheritances to be testing and given a value in the most pure form possible. So to summarize in simple terms, capitalism without correction for artificial wealth/power accumulation and without correcting for artificial inheritances for new generations, fails to perform its intended function.

    Thus, new generations to not have the opportunity to experience their full value due to artificial inheritances. Does this help cpwill?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the desire to start over and remake the human race anew is a failed fantasy of bloody ideologies precisely because it so poorly correlates to the natural order of things.
    Who said anything about starting and remaking the human race anew? Some who do not understand the concepts may see it that way, but its not intending to do that at all. Instead, its intent is to simply allow our market and each new generation to benefit from both individual realization of natural value and collective realization of the results of a purer capitalistic market. Purer meaning that it would be more analogous to what we observe in species competition in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    We are discussing (ultimately) the passing on of the fruits of production. Whether done so in the form of M1, a farm, education, personal attention from the parent as a child during time not devoted to labor it is all that which we (naturally) pass on to our children to give them the greatest advantage possible.
    Of course we want to pass on what we've learned to our children. We want to pass on our genes to our children. We want to pass on good parenting to our children and so on. These non-monetary inheritances are all natural inheritances. What we don't want to do is give our children an artificial inheritance that does not allow them to experience their full value. Not to mention that just as we like to see who wins from a race so long as they all start at the same starting line, we also want to see how well our new generations do without starting them on different starting lines. We want the to succeed because of their own skill and because of our dutiful parenting and passing on of values etc. If we did anything else (i.e. if we gave some artificial inheritances to some and not others) they would feel like they cheated and deep in our hearts, we would know that we helped them cheat. Not to mention how unfair it must feel to those who are on the receiving end of this cheating. Yes cpwill, we want to "pass on to our children to give them the greatest advantage possible", but we want to do it without cheating; we want to do it in a pure fashion.

    This post is not to pass judgement on people who have engaged in such cheating, but to point out what it really is. Those who feel like they are being judged should not, because all you have to do is agree that the system needs to be fixed in the way I have been describing and we can make the whole debacle go away. If you feel like you have cheated deep inside, don't beat yourself up. Remember, there are many things our forefathers did not completely grasp and there are many things that were done that were wrong by our forefathers. But we should not pay for the sins of our fathers; instead, we should fix the system today, as we know there are problems. Fear, anger, shame and defensiveness are all poisonous emotions and we should act quickly to notice that they exist within us and push them out. Nothing hurts society more than these things (except perhaps unchecked greed, lol).

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