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Thread: The Future of The USA

  1. #101
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Cop out answer if I've ever seen one; why don't you back up your claims... or do you not have any claims?
    Open your ears. Its on the page YOU linked, so why not quit with the ad hominems?

    You know youre not doing yourself any favors because everyone else can click on YOUR link, just like I did, & find out those figures are self reported data from 1997, just like I did & then what do you think they'll make of your responses?

    You dont like being helped do you?

  2. #102
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is not correct - the US does indeed have the best medical care available in the world - which is why people come here. We simply pay for it through a flawed third-party-payment model, which makes it more expensive than necessary.

    I can plainly see that you agree with me. You can have all the healthcare you can afford, and that is what I said. To have the best medical care available is not the best medical care. That available word is a big qualifier. Again, I'm glad we finally agree on something even if you think we do not. Black is white in your world and that is OK by me. Must be a Republican, eh?

  3. #103
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I agree that D wouldn't work.
    he can be taught!

    However, by free, obviously I meant, at no immediate cost to the patient or scholar etc. ; the cost is absorbed by the higher income levels - not including actual small businesses and people (not companies) making below 250K - I do agree with that income level marker from the left
    then you are incorrect - higher top marginal tax rates do not historically produce higher revenues. Instead, what we see in systems that operate as you propose is that the cost is borne by the low and low-middle income earners in the form of reduced availability. the upper income have the same loss of availability from the government system, but are still able to afford the private one, and a true two-tiered healthcare system emerges.

  4. #104
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I can plainly see that you agree with me. You can have all the healthcare you can afford, and that is what I said. To have the best medical care available is not the best medical care. That available word is a big qualifier.
    That is correct. To quote the Canadian Supreme Court when they struck down a portion of that nations' health care system, "Access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare". In the US, for example, advanced treatments and testing are far more widely available (and utilized) than in other systems, the type of which mr adventurer seems to be advocating for.

    Again, I'm glad we finally agree on something even if you think we do not. Black is white in your world and that is OK by me. Must be a Republican, eh?
    Meh. I am fine with using the Republican party.

  5. #105
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Austin View Post
    Open your ears. Its on the page YOU linked, so why not quit with the ad hominems?

    You know youre not doing yourself any favors because everyone else can click on YOUR link, just like I did, & find out those figures are self reported data from 1997, just like I did & then what do you think they'll make of your responses?

    You dont like being helped do you?
    OK thanks for the help Paul Austin. I looked at the following link: WHO | World health report 2000 statistical annex a little more carefully and learned the following:

    If you click on:
    Annex Table 1: Health system attainment and performance in all Member States, ranked by eight measures, estimates for 1997
    You will get the World Health Organizations 2000 publication from which they made estimates on the healthcare systems in 1997.

    You will find a publication that ranks the quality of healthcare in each country. It turns out that there are countries with far better healthcare systems than even Canada. In addition, the USA is listed 37th. Usually statistics like these do not change much in 10 or so years. It is likely that the US is higher now, but not that much higher. It is clear though, that you don't have to be number one economically to provide superior healthcare.

    It should be noted that due to the huge controversy that resulted from the release, the world health organization declined to list countries in a ranking again, instead simply describing each countries healthcare systems in their latest reports. This in itself is kind of interesting... i.e. what kinds of pressure might an organization be under that would make them to decide to do away with this format?

    Anyway, here is what we have. It is likely that things haven't changed all that much in this short period of time. Besides, the whole point of this was to point out that being number one economically doesn't necessarily mean one is number one healthcare wise.

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 USA
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    40 Brunei
    41 New Zealand
    42 Bahrain
    43 Croatia
    44 Qatar
    45 Kuwait
    46 Barbados
    47 Thailand
    48 Czech Republic
    49 Malaysia
    50 Poland
    Now Paul Austin... it is all out there, my point has been proven. Please, rather than trying to poke holes in a winning argument, try to contribute some evidence that is counter to my point.

  6. #106
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Now Paul Austin... it is all out there, my point has been proven.
    I think you will find it was MY point proven & that despite your ad hominems that your figures were 15 years old.

    Btw. you havent dealt with self reporting yet.

  7. #107
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It's a monumental task to purport to undertake (erasing the disadvantage of being born into an incompetent family). I do think creatively, but have to admit that the effective solutions are oppressive. I know about the horrors of the fetal alcohol spectrum, the impact of physical, emotional and sexual abuse, of growing up in a drug-abusing home, et cetera. I have thought creatively about how to stamp that out. "Providing education" doesn't do squat. You have to get serious if you really care to achieve that goal (erasing the disadvantage of being born to incompetents). Getting serious means getting oppressive.
    Those are all great issues that you have brought up. What most people don't realize, is that these kinds of situations are brought about by individuals responding to their environment in the only way they know how to. What is requires is a change in environment along with education and perhaps a few semi-oppressive policies. We don't have to go straight to oppression. There are other ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I don't think you're understanding all the aspects of that issue, given how simply you're looking at it.
    Sometimes the simplest answers are best - (Occam's razor). But please, lets complicate things a little, do share what you have in mind....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Absolutely, except that it's financially nonviable to pour resources into everyone when 0.00001% of them will become valuable to the degree that athletes are. The reason not everyone is successful has relatively little to do with being too dumb/uneducated, and a lot more to do with the supply of and demand for expert labor.
    I agree with you to a degree. It is not viable to pour out resources in the same manner that we do to athletes because the money just isn't there. But there is some money there. That poster's idea may have been a little exaggerated, but its got creativity points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Well apparently it's because you move the goalposts.
    When I talk about true equality of opportunity, I am not talking about true equality of outcome. True equality of opportunity seems to be most likely found in option C or between option B and C. Option D is where the vastly different equality of outcome is found.

  8. #108
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Austin View Post
    I think you will find it was MY point proven & that despite your ad hominems that your figures were 15 years old. Btw. you havent dealt with self reporting yet.
    Sure you were right about the year... however, not right about what you were trying to prove wrong. That is, the evidence given shows that it does not take a number one economy to create number one healthcare. Bottom line.

  9. #109
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    then you are incorrect - higher top marginal tax rates do not historically produce higher revenues. Instead, what we see in systems that operate as you propose is that the cost is borne by the low and low-middle income earners in the form of reduced availability. the upper income have the same loss of availability from the government system, but are still able to afford the private one, and a true two-tiered healthcare system emerges.
    Please enlighten us with examples

  10. #110
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    Re: The Future of The USA

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. To quote the Canadian Supreme Court when they struck down a portion of that nations' health care system, "Access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare". In the US, for example, advanced treatments and testing are far more widely available (and utilized) than in other systems, the type of which mr adventurer seems to be advocating for.
    If this is true... then why would the World Health Organization list the healthcare systems in the way they did? Its hard to believe that they were just bumbling idiots throwing out numbers for the controversy of it. The only way to prove your point is to show evidence cpwill.

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