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Which Party Values the Middle Class More?

Which Party values the Middle Class More?

  • Total voters
    39
marsden said:
What liberals fail to understand is that the Right wants people from ALL classes to have the opportunity to BECOME rich.
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That's great!!! So is there a Republican plan in place so that all schools will receive equal taxes so that everyone, no matter where they're born, who they're born to, and what the real estate value of their community is, have access to equal education so that they can have equal opportunity to become rich?
 
Jonsa said:
What about all those people who don't lust after money and things, but who are wealthy in love respect and family - repectable working class people of specific personal ambitions that once the food is on the table and the roof stops leaking are more than content to enjoy their true "wealth"?
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If they are content with their current state, than what is the problem?
I am failing to see what you are getting at.........
 
Cardinal said:
That's great!!! So is there a Republican plan in place so that all schools will receive equal taxes so that everyone, no matter where they're born, who they're born to, and what the real estate value of their community is, have access to equal education so that they can have equal opportunity to become rich?
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Is there ANY plan, from ANYone, that does that?
 
longview said:
Part of the right to self determination is the ability to fail, and hopefully learn from that failure.
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I agree the best lessons in life are learned from failure. I should know, I've had a lot of them in 60 years. But then again, I've learned and have prospered.

Are we smart enough to decide we need health insurance? no mandate it.
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No, I don't believe we are smart enough when we are young. When we are young we are going to live forever. I don't think a mandate is the way to go, I think a single payer system is the way to go.

Can you decide how much salt to put in your food? clearly not restrict it.
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absolutely you can decide how much salt you want, but I suggest that educating the young about the consequence of such dietary choices is appropriate. And certainly informing the public of how much sodium etc is in both packaged and fast foods is a good thing for people to decide for themselves.\

Can you raise your children the way you would like? heaven forbid no
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there should be some limitations to how you raise your children. Despite what some people might think,they are not a parents property, only their responsibility. For instance, you wouldnt approve of a father raising his female children to sexual service him. You wouldn't approve of a parent who beats their children. I know I wouldn't approve of a parent who denies a child life saving medical treatment. I also wouldn't approve of a parent who refuses to have their children vaccinated.
Personally I completely disapprove of religious and poltical indoctrination, but I recognize in many instances the line is too subjective. That said, I beleive parents should be prevented from indocrination of their children to hate.

Both sides, left and right restrict freedoms, and both justify it, loss of freedom is wrong ether way.
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I agree that both side restrict freedoms, but in order to live in a civil society, some freedoms must be restricted or our outright forbidden. Its a fine line, and mostly subjective, but not always - paedophilia, child porno, and other "crimes" as defined by society.
 
The Mark said:
Is there ANY plan, from ANYone, that does that?
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I was just told that the right wants people from all classes to become rich, so I assume they have something like that plan in place and ready to implement once Romney is president.
 
The Mark said:
I didn't say they canceled each other out - what I meant was that each side has its own ideas, and in many cases the two side's ideas about a given issue conflict.

One side MAY be right. But the question is....which one? Personally I lean towards the right when it comes to fiscal issues, but to the left when it comes to social issues. Of course some issues are both social AND fiscal, and in those cases I usually give the fiscal aspect more weight.
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So, which is better? Having all the social issue victories you can name and a bankrupt economy and Trillions more in debt and more than 23 million out of work and america made impotent in the world while sharks like Iran and Norko and Russia are circling?

Or a strong economy, strong military, a dramatic increase in jobs, a decreasing deficit and debt but women have to buy their own birth control pills? (We know that Roe vs Wade WILL NOT be reversed under Romney and Romney believes in leaving matters like same sex marriage to the states to decide.)
 
Cardinal said:
I was just told that the right wants people from all classes to become rich, so I assume they have something like that plan in place and ready to implement once Romney is president.
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forced redistribution only makes some artificially rich.
 
Cardinal said:
I was just told that the right wants people from all classes to become rich, so I assume they have something like that plan in place and ready to implement once Romney is president.
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Actually I think the line was (to paraphrase) "...the opportunity for everyone to become rich."

That, however, also includes the opportunity for everyone to fail epically and be poor as ****.
 
Let's just get this out in the open;

Those of a progressive mindset claim that a greater tax on a certain group or class, to the benefit of those beneath them is fair.

The problem with the whole concept is that it is based on the premise that the "fairness" can only be achieved by abandoning the concept outright, and from the start.

Is a 75% tax on someone who makes more than someone else, fair? No. If anything, it is a form of discrimination.
Is a 5% tax on someone who makes less than someone else, fair? Again, No. It is not discrimination, but preferential treatment.

I did housework for a lady that lived down the street from me.
I worked at a fireworks store.
I worked at fast-food joints, and grocery stores.
I ended up working at a major ISP, as the highest level of engineer one can become.

And do you know what is different between me and the progressive left? I didn't bitch about what it took for me to get there.
If there was a problem where I was at, I went somewhere else, and never looked back. Funny, now I am at the top, and all with just a G.E.D.
 
TurtleDude said:
forced redistribution only makes some artificially rich.
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Everyone's taxes go to the military so we're all equally protected, so everyone's taxes can go to the education system so we can all get equal education.
 
marsden said:
So, which is better? Having all the social issue victories you can name and a bankrupt economy and Trillions more in debt and more than 23 million out of work and america made impotent in the world while sharks like Iran and Norko and Russia are circling?

Or a strong economy, strong military, a dramatic increase in jobs, a decreasing deficit and debt but women have to buy their own birth control pills? (We know that Roe vs Wade WILL NOT be reversed under Romney and Romney believes in leaving matters like same sex marriage to the states to decide.)
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If I thought Romney, or for that matter anyone, would do any of that, or even that congress would do so dispite whoever was pres, I might agree.

Frankly though, I think we're going to continue on this same basic dive into a deep pit of fail no matter which of the two main party candidates take office.
 
The Mark said:
Actually I think the line was (to paraphrase) "...the opportunity for everyone to become rich."

That, however, also includes the opportunity for everyone to fail epically and be poor as ****.
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So the right wants everyone to have the opportunity to be rich, they just don't want an educational policy in place that can make that more likely? :/
 
Kr1ll1n said:
If they are content with their current state, than what is the problem?
I am failing to see what you are getting at.........
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Simple. I am saying that this notion that society to be structure for the sole purpose of enabling ANYONE to attain success in the form of riches, does not take into account those that have a different philosophy of what success in life is all about. There must be a balance. Particularly when one considers the reality of the meme "anyone who wants it can be successful - iow rich" in a society. the simple fact of the matter is that this applies to a very small percentage of a society.

I used to think that America was a true meritocracy, but it is not even close. Consider the top 5% of "upper class" (i.e. wealthy), how many of them are self made and how many of them are inherited "economic aristocracy"? the picture isn't nearly as patriotically altrusitic as the wealthy autocrats would have you believe.
thad is not to say that there isn't the opportunity, merely that the reality of that opportunity isn't even remotely close to generalized view of the right.
 
Cardinal said:
Everyone's taxes go to the military so we're all equally protected, so everyone's taxes can go to the education system so we can all get equal education.
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I don't use public education. I went to a top prep school and have three ivy degrees. My son goes to the same prep school and I expect he's going to go to some eastern school depending on where he can play squash. My money still goes to public schools though I have never used them. and since I have a rather valuable piece of property and since I, along with my two brothers owned my late parents' home which was one of the more valuable pieces of property in Cincinnati for the three years we were fixing it up for sale, I have paid lots and lots and lots of property taxes-far more than the vast majority of people who use public education

its idiotic to compare "equal protection" which is an indirect benefit with "equal education"
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't use public education.
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If you're going to go with an anecdotal argument then yours by definition disqualifies you from the discussion.
 
Cardinal said:
So the right wants everyone to have the opportunity to be rich, they just don't want an educational policy in place that can make that more likely? :/
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I have no idea.

Personally, I'd say any reasonable person, whether left or right, would think that our current public education system is a POS and needs fixed.

But no politicians are going to touch it, except on a local or possibly state level. Politicians don't touch issues that people actually care about if they can help it.

Random wars around the world? We don't actually care, it's kinda like reality TV on a large scale for us.

But try to fix the issues with Social Security, or any number of other social programs and the like that actually directly effect people? Holy hell you'll see an uproar.
 
Cardinal said:
If you're going to go with an anecdotal argument then yours by definition disqualifies you from the discussion.
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that is stupid. your analogy was really silly
 
TurtleDude said:
the left believes in keeping the masses in poverty and dependent on rich elites who are rich through government rather than by creating anything of value
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Ha ha.

How many of the right have gotten rich because of the government? Let's see.

the military industrial complex.
national engineering and construction
international engineering and contruction
American prisons

shall I go on?

what a hypocritical view, divorced from reality.
 
TurtleDude said:
that is stupid. your analogy was really silly
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None of your eighty-seven ivy degrees have prepared you to understand this topic. But keep slamming away at your keyboard, they at least taught you how to type well enough.
 
The Mark said:
I have no idea.

Personally, I'd say any reasonable person, whether left or right, would think that our current public education system is a POS and needs fixed.

But no politicians are going to touch it, except on a local or possibly state level. Politicians don't touch issues that people actually care about if they can help it.

Random wars around the world? We don't actually care, it's kinda like reality TV on a large scale for us.

But try to fix the issues with Social Security, or any number of other social programs and the like that actually directly effect people? Holy hell you'll see an uproar.
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You can spend 100K a year on some students but if they are stoned, the single parent home is run by a crack ho, and their peers call them "uncle tom" if they try to make good grades, you aren't going to create many successful students from people dealing with that environment
 
Cardinal said:
You don't understand the topic.
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You have no concept of what I understand. but then again, its that liberal attitude again-pretending you know what someone else knows more than they do
 
Kr1ll1n said:
Let's just get this out in the open;

Those of a progressive mindset claim that a greater tax on a certain group or class, to the benefit of those beneath them is fair.

The problem with the whole concept is that it is based on the premise that the "fairness" can only be achieved by abandoning the concept outright, and from the start.

Is a 75% tax on someone who makes more than someone else, fair? No. If anything, it is a form of discrimination.
Is a 5% tax on someone who makes less than someone else, fair? Again, No. It is not discrimination, but preferential treatment.

I did housework for a lady that lived down the street from me.
I worked at a fireworks store.
I worked at fast-food joints, and grocery stores.
I ended up working at a major ISP, as the highest level of engineer one can become.

And do you know what is different between me and the progressive left? I didn't bitch about what it took for me to get there.
If there was a problem where I was at, I went somewhere else, and never looked back. Funny, now I am at the top, and all with just a G.E.D.
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and naturally you are indicative of everyone.
I'll bet that you rose in the ranks by taking company sponsored courses. Are you MS certified? or do you contend your brilliance was the sole factor in your success?
 
TurtleDude said:
You can spend 100K a year on some students but if they are stoned, the single parent home is run by a crack ho, and their peers call them "uncle tom" if they try to make good grades, you aren't going to create many successful students from people dealing with that environment
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Spending more money on the Pub Ed system will not fix the problem.

The problem is in a large part the support sytem OUTSIDE the school system. Lack of parental guidence, lack of a real home life, etc...

Now, that is not to say such issues cannot be overcome, nor that kids without those issues to deal with cannot fail as well...but it is a major issue IMO - and one which more education funding will not fix.
 
Cardinal said:
None of your eighty-seven ivy degrees have prepared you to understand this topic. But keep slamming away at your keyboard, they at least taught you how to type well enough.
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I really couldn't care what a far lefty says I understand, the topic is about which side values the middle class more and the left clearly has a vested interest in keeping people mired in dependency
 
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