View Poll Results: Is patriotism overrated?

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Thread: Is patriotism overrated?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    That's interesting. I don't have that sense of community pride at all. I think the patriotism I feel for our country is just that: for our country. On the local/state levels, it's all about politics. I don't feel a sense of loyalty to a town or state; just to America. Interesting...
    Exactly my point. Is it rational to feel more loyalty to 300 million other people you're likely never to meet compared to those that immediately surround you?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #52
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    , I decided to make my triumphant return with something that has been on my mind lately.
    Triumphant returns are overrated.

    Doubly so when there is no triumph.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  3. #53
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Exactly my point. Is it rational to feel more loyalty to 300 million other people you're likely never to meet compared to those that immediately surround you?
    I don't think patriotism is loyalty to 300 million people. I think it's loyalty to my country and everything it stands for.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #54
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm there are plenty of Catholics who oppose going to war and who have committed themselves to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion. What makes them cowards, but Quakers conscientious objectors?
    Well, again, if someone can show (in times of draft, we're talking about) that they are committed to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion, then I have no problem with anyone claiming conscientious objection to serving in our military.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  5. #55
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't think patriotism is loyalty to 300 million people. I think it's loyalty to my country and everything it stands for.
    I don't understand why the two should be mutually exclusive. Our country ultimately consists of the people who reside within it.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #56
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Patriotism isn't blind allegiance to people or policy. It's loyalty to an ideal - to principle. If you feel that an injustice has been committed, or ideals or principles have been betrayed, you should speak out in defense of them and speak out to preserve what you feel is great and speak out because of what you love about your country.
    Why do we fall?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't understand why the two should be mutually exclusive. Our country ultimately consists of the people who reside within it.
    The very definition of the word "patriotism" applies to one's country as a whole. Community pride is something entirely different. Can one feel a sense of patriotism for one's neighbor? Hardly. That's not the meaning of the word.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  8. #58
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    They believe peaceful reconciliation can be far more effective than violent actions. They are committed to non-violence.
    If another country attacks your country and is attempting to invade it then any peaceful means of ending the war are over.

    There have been instances throughout history where non-violence has worked (think MLK and Gandhi). You wouldn't say that MLK and Gandhi were "pussies", would you? A lot of times non-violence can take greater strength and will than violence.
    MLK going violent would have resulted in the loss of his and everyone else life with nothing accomplished. Ghandi Being a pussy was not the only factor that lead to India's independence and many would argue that India's Independence came from circumstances like WWII being a financial drain on Britain, countless freedom fighters in India and so on.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #59
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If another country attacks your country and is attempting to invade it then any peaceful means of ending the war are over.
    A Quaker would disagree. You can disagree with Quakers and their beliefs, but calling Quakers "pussies" and "disloyal pieces of ****" is rather mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    MLK going violent would have resulted in the loss of his and everyone else life with nothing accomplished.
    Exactly. MLK's success resulted directly from his non-violence approach, which goes back to what I said before, which was that non-violence has worked in the past.

  10. #60
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    A Quaker would disagree. You can disagree with Quakers and their beliefs, but calling Quakers "pussies" and "disloyal pieces of ****" is rather mean.

    Of course someone who uses their religion to pussy out would disgree with me that using your religion to weasel out of military service is ****ty thing to do.


    Exactly. MLK's success resulted directly from his non-violence approach, which goes back to what I said before, which was that non-violence has worked in the past.
    I don't MLK had a choice in the matter.going the violent route would have resulted in nothing except for more hatred towards black people.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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