View Poll Results: Is patriotism overrated?

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    28 58.33%
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Thread: Is patriotism overrated?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    From things like screaming "USA! USA! USA!" as loud as you can to arguing about what nation is the best, it has become more and more clear to me that it's all just archaic and neanderthal-like garbage.
    That's nationalism. Debating someone who doesn't know the difference is silly. Good day.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
    Pacifist to the point of marterdom actually. They will serve in the capacity of medics though.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You remind me of a question my dad asked me:

    "Maggie, who's the most important person in the world to you?" I thought a minute and answered, "My husband." He said: "Absolutely WRONG." The most important person in the world to you had better be YOU."

    WTF?? "Why??"

    "Because of you don't put yourself first...for the most part be good to yourself and look after your own self-interests ... you can't take care of those around you that you care about."

    Reminds me of patriotism. Our own interests first. Only by being a strong nation can we help others. A strong economy, strong military and conscientious leaders in Washington. Whether we like it or we don't, our nation has and will continue to fight tyranny abroad and continues to stand between those who would do each other harm and those who would harm us.

    USA! USA! USA!

    ####

    One of my favorite all-time quotes, from Colin Powell:
    Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you here but merely playing devil's advocate. If you, and those around you, are the most important people in your life, why is patriotism generally valued more than state pride? Or county pride? Or community pride? Shouldn't you be most proud of your community/neighborhood first, since those are the people you generally interact and meet face-to-face with on a daily basis?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    I think you confuse patriotism with boorishness. Patriotism should be worn in one's heart, not on their sleeve.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Regardless if pacifism is brain washed into them or not is irrelevant to the fact it is a ****ty thing to sit back while your fellow countrymen are laying down their lives to defend the country while you go "but my religion says I must be a pussy,so I can't fight".
    They believe peaceful reconciliation can be far more effective than violent actions. They are committed to non-violence.

    There have been instances throughout history where non-violence has worked (think MLK and Gandhi). You wouldn't say that MLK and Gandhi were "pussies", would you? A lot of times non-violence can take greater strength and will than violence.

  6. #46
    global liberation

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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    I think you confuse patriotism with boorishness. Patriotism should be worn in one's heart, not on their sleeve.
    While I agree with the sentiment, I have this avatar because militant democratic peace theory is my most grating issue and I might as well put that out front - this being a political debate forum.

  7. #47
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    I was thinking more under the assumption of what if there were a military draft.

    And if a Quaker were to vocally denounce violence and war, would that make him or her unpatriotic?
    I see. Well, there is allowance for conscientious objection even in times of a military draft. Those whose faith strongly objects to war/violence/etc. should be allowed to opt out, I think, if their pattern of living has shown that their faith is very important in their lives. JMVHO.

    Let's face it. No Christian religion endorses going to war and killing people. (At least none that I know of...) Those who say, "I'm Catholic, I'm going to evade the draft," can go to hell. They're cowards.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  8. #48
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I see. Well, there is allowance for conscientious objection even in times of a military draft. Those whose faith strongly objects to war/violence/etc. should be allowed to opt out, I think, if their pattern of living has shown that their faith is very important in their lives. JMVHO.

    Let's face it. No Christian religion endorses going to war and killing people. (At least none that I know of...) Those who say, "I'm Catholic, I'm going to evade the draft," can go to hell. They're cowards.
    Umm there are plenty of Catholics who oppose going to war and who have committed themselves to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion. What makes them cowards, but Quakers conscientious objectors?
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  9. #49
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    I see patriotism as involving an awareness and a commitment to values rather than just just allegiance. Patriotism becomes jingoist when it is offered unquestioningly.

    I see plenty of Jingoists who think America is always right. Even when we torture people, they will support the action. I also see plenty of anti-Americans who think America is always wrong. THey are so reactive by nature, they defend those who wish to destroy us.

    To me a patriot is one who believes in our values, thinks they are a good thing and wishes to promote these values, but is also willing to stand up in such a way as to say "we need to be better than that". It isn't a republican/democrat thing, a liberal/conservative thing or a left/right thing. It is a basing one's patriotism upon values thing and when a person loses sight of the values and follows blindly, they stop being a patriot.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  10. #50
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you here but merely playing devil's advocate. If you, and those around you, are the most important people in your life, why is patriotism generally valued more than state pride? Or county pride? Or community pride? Shouldn't you be most proud of your community/neighborhood first, since those are the people you generally interact and meet face-to-face with on a daily basis?
    That's interesting. I don't have that sense of community pride at all. I think the patriotism I feel for our country is just that: for our country. On the local/state levels, Washington, it's all about politics. I don't feel a sense of loyalty to a town or state; just to America. Interesting...
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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