View Poll Results: Is patriotism overrated?

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Thread: Is patriotism overrated?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    Are Quakers "disloyal unpatriotic pieces of ****"? I went to a Quaker college and although I'm not a Quaker myself, I disagree with this comment.
    Hiding behind religion to weasel out of defending your country is a piece of **** thing to do.

    What about those who refused to go to war in Iraq?
    If they joined the military then they were obligated to serve in any war the US engages in.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  2. #32
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Hiding behind religion to weasel out of defending your country is a piece of **** thing to do.
    It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
    Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  4. #34
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
    Then I assume they don't join the military? If they join the military and don't "go where they're sent," they're hypocrites.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  5. #35
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Actually those two words practically synonymous with each other.

    Patriotism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    : love for or devotion to one's country

    Nationalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    1
    : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
    2
    : a nationalist movement or government
    This is very clearly what causes the problem. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. I'm patriotic, but I'm definitely not a "blind patriot" but will admit to having been one when I joined the military. Vietnam woke me up. There seemed no reason for the war and lots of dying was going on. Lies, distortions, and nationalistic jingoism filled the air. "Liberty and Justice for all" means a great deal to me and overlaps to include moral issues and it does not say "for all in the USA." That is what incenses me about our current warmongering for profit economy and policies. I know the good nature of the people of this Nation and all Nations, but the money flows of the planet dictate policies that are detrimental to humanity. I don't know how we overcome this and this election season and lack of debate on the important issues regarding the planet and humans demonstrates clearly that we have a long way to go. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, but as the Dem Socialist stated it's not about "my Country, right or wrong." When we're wrong, make noise, protest, squeal, whatever it takes to bring attention to the problem.

  6. #36
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
    I would say it depends on who you ask. Here is what Thomas Chalkley, who was a Quaker missionary, said, "I being innocent if I was killed in my body, my soul might be happy; but if I killed him, he dying in his wickedness would consequently be unhappy; and if I was killed he might live to repent; but If I killed him, be would have no time to repent."

  7. #37
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Then I assume they don't join the military? If they join the military and don't "go where they're sent," they're hypocrites.
    I was thinking more under the assumption of what if there were a military draft.

    And if a Quaker were to vocally denounce violence and war, would that make him or her unpatriotic?

  8. #38
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    We're really getting to the point where the problems we face as a species or as a world are far more pressing than any problems we might face as a nation. Most of our problems (climate change, nuclear proliferation, terrorism, energy production) are all problems with a global scale. The causes and effects of these problems stretch well beyond our national borders. Thinking of country first and world second is a counterproductive stance to take. To help the country, one must help the world.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
    Regardless if pacifism is brain washed into them or not is irrelevant to the fact it is a ****ty thing to sit back while your fellow countrymen are laying down their lives to defend the country while you go "but my religion says I must be a pussy,so I can't fight".
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #40
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    Re: Is patriotism overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You remind me of a question my dad asked me:

    "Maggie, who's the most important person in the world to you?" I thought a minute and answered, "My husband." He said: "Absolutely WRONG." The most important person in the world to you had better be YOU."

    WTF?? "Why??"

    "Because of you don't put yourself first...for the most part be good to yourself and look after your own self-interests ... you can't take care of those around you that you care about."

    Reminds me of patriotism. Our own interests first. Only by being a strong nation can we help others. A strong economy, strong military and conscientious leaders in Washington. Whether we like it or we don't, our nation has and will continue to fight tyranny abroad and continues to stand between those who would do each other harm and those who would harm us.

    USA! USA! USA!

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