View Poll Results: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

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  • I am a citizen of a socialist country and like it

    4 14.81%
  • I have spent time in a socialist country and socialism is gravy

    2 7.41%
  • No, but I have a Che Guevara T-shirt

    3 11.11%
  • I have, and socialism is awful

    4 14.81%
  • I'm a red-blooded American, to hell with those pinko commies

    14 51.85%
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Thread: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

  1. #61
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    How very different from these halcyon days we're living through now.
    I dont think these are halcyon days either.

    Different in that mass unemployment was about half what it is now and this after the stats were fixed to exclude several groups from the stats that were included in the Seventies.
    Of course unemployment continued to rise, the country was virtually bankrupted & the manufacturing sector ended up folding, thats always going to cause unemployment to rise.

    People are still dying of hypothermia, not due to strikes but due to fuel poverty created by the profiteering of corporations. Strikes happened and passed, profiteering is for life.
    A LOT less are dying from hypothermia today & there isnt nationwide blackouts with every single old person & child sitting shivering in the darkness.

    I'm glad you think that things are so heavenly now.
    I dont, but neither am I going to try & kid people about how damaging your supposedly halcyon days were.

    I mean you mention Thatcher, old Margaret Thatcher "milk snatcher", not a woman Im fond of, in fact who was? She was pretty unpopular wasnt she, so how bad were things that people felt compelled to vote for someone so unpopular?

    She had to sell off virtually everything left to pay off the debts didnt she?

    But how bad were things? The economy has been a pretty major debate between the main Brit parties in recent times hasnt it? Tell me how often do the Cons & Libs, in debate, mention Labors history? I see it a lot in what I see & hear.

    Over 35 years later its still seen as such a bad era, such a boogyman that its dragged out as the benchmark of how bad things can be in Britain & even Labor have distanced themselves from that era, their time in office, through shame at how bad it was.

    No, I dont think life is heavenly today, but like most people that things could be & have been worse.

  2. #62
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Ah -- so you base your views on a profound misunderstanding.
    I figured. That why I hoped for a better definition and some examples.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  3. #63
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I figured. That why I hoped for a better definition and some examples.
    I think it has more to do with the understanding that the term "socialism" involves degrees thereof rather than either/or.
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  4. #64
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I generally use the terms that are common in Germany: That boils down to "socialism is what socialists define as such". Hence the East Bloc countries were socialist, as the commies in power used that term. To make a difference to forms of "democratic socialism" propagated by leftists within the democratic systems, which clearly distanced themselves from the East Bloc socialism, the East Bloc socialist "dictatorship of the proletariat" was sometimes called "Realsozialismus" or "really existing socialism".

    I find it funny when democratic socialists/Maoists/Trotzkists/non-dogmatic socialists claim that the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist brand of "real socialism" isn't socialism -- reminds me of various Christian sects who claim all the other churches are "not really Christians".
    You contradict yourself. First you say socialism is what socialists define as such', and then you say that you find it funny when socialists do just that...opine on what is and is not socialism. Which is it, GG? Perhaps your first comment meant, 'socialism is what the socialists I call socialist define as such'. Perhaps you'd correct me.

    Social Democrats exist in other European countries too, like in Scandinavia or the Netherlands. And they are mostly responsible for the extensive welfare states that exist there. But most people would make a very sharp difference between this democratic kind of policies and "real socialism" (revolutionary brands of Marxist-Leninist or even Stalinist brands of socialism that existed in the East Bloc).
    As a non-socialist, isn't it beyond your ability to define what strand of socialism is 'real' socialism? Perhaps that epithet 'real socialism' is applied to the state socialism of the Eastern Bloc in some circles in Germany, but I've never heard my German friends use it, but it is highly misleading and certainly created for rhetorical, i.e. anti-socialist, uses.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You contradict yourself. First you say socialism is what socialists define as such', and then you say that you find it funny when socialists do just that...opine on what is and is not socialism. Which is it, GG? Perhaps your first comment meant, 'socialism is what the socialists I call socialist define as such'. Perhaps you'd correct me.
    Yeah, sloppy wording, my bad. Of course democratic socialists who call themselves "socialist" are socialists too. But so are the Marxist-Leninist and Stalinist socialists.

    As a non-socialist, isn't it beyond your ability to define what strand of socialism is 'real' socialism? Perhaps that epithet 'real socialism' is applied to the state socialism of the Eastern Bloc in some circles in Germany, but I've never heard my German friends use it, but it is highly misleading and certainly created for rhetorical, i.e. anti-socialist, uses.
    No, it is common usage. "Real existierender Sozialismus" (="socialism as it exists in reality") was even sometimes used by certain democratic socialists to label the East Bloc.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Austin View Post
    I dont think these are halcyon days either.
    That's a relief. So, how bad do you think they really are?


    Of course unemployment continued to rise, the country was virtually bankrupted & the manufacturing sector ended up folding, thats always going to cause unemployment to rise.
    You think that current levels of unemployment are due to the continuing effects of the pre-Thatcher era?


    A LOT less are dying from hypothermia today & there isnt nationwide blackouts with every single old person & child sitting shivering in the darkness.
    I lived through 1973 as an 11-year-old kid in a dirt poor family, you are wildly exaggerating.

    I mean you mention Thatcher, old Margaret Thatcher "milk snatcher", not a woman Im fond of, in fact who was? She was pretty unpopular wasnt she, so how bad were things that people felt compelled to vote for someone so unpopular?
    She was wildly popular with a large section of society. They loved her wars, her anti-unionism and her flagrant populism. Two-thirds of the Press loved her, and still do. The bankers and financial industry loved her and bank-rolled her privatisations and destruction of the industrial base. If you're looking for the authors of our current predicament look to them.
    She had to sell off virtually everything left to pay off the debts didnt she?
    No, she had to sell off national assets to reward those people who put her in power and kept her there. They were generously compensated.

    But how bad were things? The economy has been a pretty major debate between the main Brit parties in recent times hasnt it? Tell me how often do the Cons & Libs, in debate, mention Labors history? I see it a lot in what I see & hear.
    Really? I haven't heard the Seventies mentioned. Don't forget that the Blair years were a continuation of the Thatcher years, not the reincarnation of Wilson/Callaghan.

    Over 35 years later its still seen as such a bad era, such a boogyman that its dragged out as the benchmark of how bad things can be in Britain & even Labor have distanced themselves from that era, their time in office, through shame at how bad it was.
    You called it, a 'boogyman'. You're aware that boogymen aren't real, aren't you?

    No, I dont think life is heavenly today, but like most people that things could be & have been worse.
    I'm not arguing that the Sixties and Seventies were halcyon days. I'm arguing that there were a lot of good things that came out of post-War socialism in the UK that have been lost: equality of opportunity; social mobility; community and solidarity. I'm also arguing that despite what the ideologues of neo-liberalism might have us believe, things are not appreciably better now than they were 40 years ago, it's just that a small class of plutocrats are a lot, lot better off than they were, which is what all that class warfare that Thatcher et al waged was all about.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well it it could be proved that it was not ratified according too the constitution it would be illegal.

    now there is a man who claims it is unconstitutional because he has been to every state who vote on the amendment and says he has proof, its not legal, and he has been ordered by the USSC to keep silent on his evidence.


    you choose for yourself......HOW SOME STATES DID NOT LEGALLY RATIFY THE 16TH AMENDMENT
    Yeah, I know of such people. They also tend to believe all government is illegal and tend to run around in the woods in combat fatigues with modified automatic weapons.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    I'll try to circumscribe the terms a little more, as I understand them:

    Marxists are socialists, but not all socialists are necessarily Marxists. Marxist-Leninists, Stalinists and Maoists are kinds of dogmatic socialists.

    Dogmatic Marxists or Marxist-Leninists, Stalinists or Maoists support Marx' idea of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" (see: Marx' Communist Manifesto), hence the tyrannic political system in the East Bloc. It's called "socialism as it exists in reality", because it is the only genuinely socialist system that has ever been realized.

    Trotzkists are dogmatic socialists who believe in the ideologies of Marx and Trotzky, sometimes Lenin too, and usually want to replace the constitutional-parliamentary system with a system of council democracy (has never been put to reality, as far as I know).

    Many of these dogmatic socialists are pro-revolutionary (sometimes calling themselves "communists", while communism is their desired end goal of a classless society according to Marx, while socialism is the necessary first step towards that goal).

    Social Democrats may be democratic socialists, but not all Social Democrats are democratic socialists. Social Democrats usually support the constitutional-representative democratic-republican system of government and are anti-revolutionary and legalist-reformist.

    Democratic socialists are people who want to expand social redistribution within the constitutional-democratic-republican system of government, while non-socialist Social Democrats are satisfied with preserving the existing social redistribution systems.

    Democratic socialists may be Marxists, but not necessarily are. There are non-dogmatic socialists too.

    People who support public social safety nets are not necessarily socialists or Social Democrats. You find people from almost all sides of the political spectrum who support certain public programs for wealth redistribution.

    For example, the (West-)German system of "Social Market Economy" was created by the conservative right-wing Christian Democrats. The Scandinavian welfare states were created by Social Democrats (not all of which consider themselves socialists). The pre-Thatcher British welfare systems were created by the Labor Party, which, as far as I know, consisted mostly of non-dogmatic, mostly non-Marxist democratic socialists.

    Some on the American right seem to label anything "socialist" that's left from hardcore-libertarian positions.
    Last edited by German guy; 10-30-12 at 01:22 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  9. #69
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yeah, I know of such people. They also tend to believe all government is illegal and tend to run around in the woods in combat fatigues with modified automatic weapons.
    your referring to someone who calls themselves a sovereign citizen, and some are crazy.

    during a Constitution class the teacher spoke about the guy in the link i posted, now i left it up too the individual to choose, but the guy, says the 16th was not properly ratified, because some states had changed the wording and approved it, which it cant be changed and voted on, and some states he says voted it down, and he has the officials record too prove it.

  10. #70
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    Re: Have you ever lived in a socialist country?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I'll try to circumscribe the terms a little more, as I understand them:

    Marxists are socialists, but not all socialists are necessarily Marxists. Marxist-Leninists, Stalinists and Maoists are kinds of dogmatic socialists.

    Dogmatic Marxists or Marxist-Leninists, Stalinists or Maoists support Marx' idea of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" (see: Marx' Communist Manifesto), hence the tyrannic political system in the East Bloc. It's called "socialism as it exists in reality", because it is the only genuinely socialist system that has ever been realized.

    Trotzkists are dogmatic socialists who believe in the ideologies of Marx and Trotzky, sometimes Lenin too, and usually want to replace the constitutional-parliamentary system with a system of council democracy (has never been put to reality, as far as I know).

    Many of these dogmatic socialists are pro-revolutionary (sometimes calling themselves "communists", while communism is their desired end goal of a classless society according to Marx, while socialism is the necessary first step towards that goal).

    Social Democrats may be democratic socialists, but not all Social Democrats are democratic socialists. Social Democrats usually support the constitutional-representative democratic-republican system of government and are anti-revolutionary and legalist-reformist.

    Democratic socialists are people who want to expand social redistribution within the constitutional-democratic-republican system of government, while non-socialist Social Democrats are satisfied with preserving the existing social redistribution systems.

    Democratic socialists may be Marxists, but not necessarily are. There are non-dogmatic socialists too.

    People who support public social safety nets are not necessarily socialists or Social Democrats. You find people from almost all sides of the political spectrum who support certain public programs for wealth redistribution.

    For example, the (West-)German system of "Social Market Economy" was created by the conservative right-wing Christian Democrats. The Scandinavian welfare states were created by Social Democrats (not all of which consider themselves socialists).

    Some on the American right seem to label anything "socialist" that's left from hardcore-libertarian positions.
    German guy, it would be foolish of me to argue with you over this subject because, i believe you know more on the subject then i do of Europe ................so i bow to your knowledge.

    i have lived in west Germany many years ago and i loved it while i was there, but i was in the military then, i hope it is still as nice there as it used too be.

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