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Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or spy?

Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or spy

  • Total voters
    59
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Would you be okay with other nations sending drones into your country to kill or spy on people? I decided to come up with this poll question because I have been thinking for awhile about how our government sends drones into Pakistan to kill people that if I was the citizens of that country the Pakistani politicians who gave the okay for such a thing would be getting lynched and publicly executed for allowing such a breach of sovereignty for the civilian causalities those drone strike sometimes cause.


Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill and or spy on people?

Yes
No
I do not know
Click to expand...

If the goverment is not part and parcel of active hostile operations against us then I agree no would be the appriate answer. However in the case of Pakistan, they and their goverment are quite active against us and our intrests in conducting overtly hostile actions against us and have done so BEFORE we have conducted overt hostile action against them. I believe the term that you are looking for is called reprisal, though in this particular case the term only fits partialy. So in answer to your question yes we VERY justified in using drones and to be quite blunt, we have been in my opinion exceedinly, bordering on excessively tame about it. If it were my administration I would be frankly much more ruthless, widespread, and overt about it.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

wolfman24 said:
This thread is apparently aimed at a country doing that to us or so it seems.

In my view there are two issues;

Drone Bombing: If we were at war (constitutional) with another country, then drones are legal and will be used.
If we are not a war with another country then what we are doing is illegal and should be viewed by the other country as an act of war. The same would be true if another country would be doing this to us.

Drone Spying; Although there are legal issues here we and other countries have been doing stuff like this for years and will continue as far into the future as I can see. right or wrong.
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There is a state that is not quite war but is not excactly peace either such as what we had with the Barbery pirates and essintially what we have with Pakistan. The only diffence really is land verses sea born, for lack of a better term, piracy, though in the case of Pakistan it is slightly more. In any case our constitution recognises this fact, though a power called Marque and Reprisal. Basically this is a licence givin to private ships or operators to go hunt ships ans their bases and plunder loot or kill them in responce to our ships being hunted. The same concept is applicable in the case of Pakistan wereas instead of private ships we use our drones and speacial operators. Quite frankly Pakistan and her citizens are earning what they get from us from our attacks by drone and special warfare people. They want it to stop, its simple stop allowing operation out of their territory that harm us or ours.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Seems kind of hypocritical to support drones killing and spying on people in other countries, but not your own.I am sure America is harboring some people wanted in other countries.
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It's a ridiculous and childish attempt at equivalency. "How do you feel about bombing Germany, do you think Germany should have the right to bomb America? How would it make you feel?". It completely misses the point. I choose to support drone strikes in Pakistan because I believe we have an enemy in those regions that is both inimical to our interests and based upon my values morally reprehensible. Bearing both of those in mind I support continued activities in Pakistan and I hold the Taliban, al-Qaeda, the Teherik-I-Taliban, and whomever else you want to drum up responsible for the continuation of the conflict because of the objectives they persist in fighting for.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Should it be legal? No. Is it going to happen anyway? Yes. Opperations of a Clandestine nature happen regardless of whether or not you "think" they should. It is quite important for us to maintain our intelligence on other countries. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with United States national security. I understand that is simplifying things, but I feel the nature of the question is simplified. The fact is that we need to keep an eye on things going on around us. It is a scary thought that OTHER nations are aquiring these drones though.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Boo Radley said:
Didn't say we didn't. Try reading the entire statement.

Oh, as I thought about it, the south had many a klan member who terrorized that law enforcement turn a blind eye to.
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Did they terrorize other countries? That's what this thread is about.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Actually, I'm okay if another country wants to send their drones over here. I just hope they're equally happy to have every damned one of them destroyed, and the incursions into their airspace to destroy the drone airbases as well. And the complete destruction of interceptors trying to stop our incursion. They should be also happy with the crippling economic sanctions that will follow. Yeah, they can send drones over, but I doubt anyone is willing to pay the cost for doing so.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

We are a civilized country, Pakistan is not. That's the difference.

jamesrage said:
Would you be okay with other nations sending drones into your country to kill or spy on people? I decided to come up with this poll question because I have been thinking for awhile about how our government sends drones into Pakistan to kill people that if I was the citizens of that country the Pakistani politicians who gave the okay for such a thing would be getting lynched and publicly executed for allowing such a breach of sovereignty for the civilian causalities those drone strike sometimes cause.


Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill and or spy on people?

Yes
No
I do not know
Click to expand...
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Sherman123 said:
It's a ridiculous and childish attempt at equivalency. "How do you feel about bombing Germany, do you think Germany should have the right to bomb America? How would it make you feel?". It completely misses the point. I choose to support drone strikes in Pakistan because I believe we have an enemy in those regions that is both inimical to our interests and based upon my values morally reprehensible. Bearing both of those in mind I support continued activities in Pakistan and I hold the Taliban, al-Qaeda, the Teherik-I-Taliban, and whomever else you want to drum up responsible for the continuation of the conflict because of the objectives they persist in fighting for.
Click to expand...


We were at war with Germany,not Pakistan. So your comparison fails.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Peter Grimm said:
We are a civilized country, Pakistan is not. That's the difference.
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Perceived civility is irrelevant to the fact we are violating the sovereignty of another country and harming their civilians without even declaring war on that country.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
We were at war with Germany,not Pakistan. So your comparison fails.
Click to expand...

Not it doesn't you are being deliberately stubborn. The point you raised was one of fairness, the issue I raised was that this is about utility and a choice in which perspective you take. I believe drone strikes offer us utility, and I believe the perspective of the US and the cause of liberalism is superior and thus I support it conversely I find the objectives of the Taliban and their affiliates to be incompatible and horrendous.

If your quibble is over the legal status of our campaign in Pakistan you can move that to another thread and its a separate question. I believe it is legal and justified under the AUMF and the constitutional prerogatives the President retains and has retained since such undeclared activities abroad began with Jefferson under similar authorization and with similar latitude. Again though, not relevant to the point at hand.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Perceived civility is irrelevant to the fact we are violating the sovereignty of another country and harming their civilians without even declaring war on that country.
Click to expand...

So are you trying to argue that your argument would be irrelevant if we had a declaration of war? That you would no longer care? Of course not, thats why the point isn't germane to the argument at hand.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Sure. If they don't like it then shoot them down.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Sherman123 said:
So are you trying to argue that your argument would be irrelevant if we had a declaration of war? That you would no longer care? Of course not, thats why the point isn't germane to the argument at hand.
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Casualties are expected in war.Bombings is what happens in war.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Casualties are expected in war.Bombings is what happens in war.
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And we are involved an authorized military conflict. Moreover whether we are or not, again it isn't the point.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

I voted no, as I am adamantly opposed to their usage outright to begin with.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Casualties are expected in war.Bombings is what happens in war.
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And when someone takes actions to kill American citizens and military personnel, they have engaged in war, whether declared or not. A hellfire missile coming straight back at them can hardly come as a surprise.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

It's not perceived civility... they are not a civilized country. They are a tribal, lawless, and violent third world country. Their own police do not have control in vast tribal sections of that country.

If we were talking about France or Japan, I would say there is no way we should be sending drones into their country. We are not. So this is distinct.

The fact is, there are terrorists in Pakistan which threaten the safety of American citizens. While you might object, Pakistan's perceived sovereignty is of secondary importance to the safety of Americans.

jamesrage said:
Perceived civility is irrelevant to the fact we are violating the sovereignty of another country and harming their civilians without even declaring war on that country.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Μολὼν λαβέ;1061093866 said:
Did they terrorize other countries? That's what this thread is about.
Click to expand...

No, that isn't what the thread is about.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Evolvepeace said:
I see what you're saying, but that isn't an equal comparison. We were attacked once, according to our government, by a terrorist cell from another country on our own soil. It wasn't the direct slaughter of thousands. Also, just because a terrorist cell makes an attack it doesn't justify occupying the entire country they are based in, at that country's great expense and our own. We don't need knee-jerk occupations and bombings. And yes, civilian casualties have been a part of almost every major war or conflict, but that doesn't mean we should brush them aside as a given stat. These are real people with real lives and we should always be striving to minimize and negate all unnecessary damage to lives and land.

Also, in your scenario, the Saudis would be working with us to find this terrorist group. But, from what I can tell, we've just put Iraq and Afganistan to work for us. That is a big problem that I have with how America views its military use. It is just "might makes right" all over the place.
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I think what your position fails to recognize is the magnitude of 9/11 and the nature of the enemy. This isn't a play nice scenario with an enemy like A.Q. and we certainly do want to be over the top to discourage new enemies. It won't take much to bring our economy to its knees and world economy with a well coordinated attack: dirty bomb, chemical weapons. We are a lot more fragile than we may think we are, which requires an all out effort on our part to win.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

EagleAye said:
And when someone takes actions to kill American citizens and military personnel, they have engaged in war, whether declared or not. A hellfire missile coming straight back at them can hardly come as a surprise.
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How many of these terrorist and innocent bystanders killed by those drones have actually killed Americans? I am pretty sure that gang members and other criminals have taken more American lives that terrorists have, but no one is suggesting that we should send in predator drones to the neighborhoods they live in to bomb them and the surrounding homes.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

Peter Grimm said:
It's not perceived civility... they are not a civilized country. They are a tribal, lawless, and violent third world country. Their own police do not have control in vast tribal sections of that country.

If we were talking about France or Japan, I would say there is no way we should be sending drones into their country. We are not. So this is distinct.
Click to expand...


Again perceived civility is irrelevant. We wouldn't tolerate another nation dropping a bomb on a suspect and innocent bystanders in our own country, heck we wouldn't tolerate even our own government dropping a bomb on a suspect and innocent bystanders in our country. This amounts to dropping a bomb on a suspected gang member, bank robber and some other suspect and innocent bystanders.

The fact is, there are terrorists in Pakistan which threaten the safety of American citizens. While you might object, Pakistan's perceived sovereignty is of secondary importance to the safety of Americans.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure criminals in our own country are a bigger threat to us than terrorists on the other side of the globe are.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
Would you be okay with other nations sending drones into your country to kill or spy on people? I decided to come up with this poll question because I have been thinking for awhile about how our government sends drones into Pakistan to kill people that if I was the citizens of that country the Pakistani politicians who gave the okay for such a thing would be getting lynched and publicly executed for allowing such a breach of sovereignty for the civilian causalities those drone strike sometimes cause.


Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill and or spy on people?

Yes
No
I do not know
Click to expand...
A simple question often ignores the complexity of a situation, but it sounds OK, neat work. So I'll give a simple answer. How about: NO! It’s not OK. One should bomb the whole country if it harbors enemies that are taking actions against us or our allies. The example you give is perfect, Pakistan. Oh the innocents in Pakistan don't have the ability to kick the terrorists out, too bad. We like simple answers.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
How many of these terrorist and innocent bystanders killed by those drones have actually killed Americans? I am pretty sure that gang members and other criminals have taken more American lives that terrorists have, but no one is suggesting that we should send in predator drones to the neighborhoods they live in to bomb them and the surrounding homes.
Click to expand...

When it comes to American gang members we have no problem sending in police forces to deal with them. Los Angeles, for instance, isn't telling the US we can't enter. So there's no need to use the drones. In the case of Pakistan, our theoretical ally, they tell us we cannot enter Pakistan to chase down terrorists. And Pakistan has demonstrated no interest in clearing out terrorist camps. So Pakistan is providing safe haven for them that we cannot reach. This leaves us with no other option but to use drones.

And these "innocents" who provide food, shelter, and supplies to terrorists who not only murder Americans, they slaughter any Afghani or Pakistani who doesn't do their bidding or fails to follow their hyper-fundamentalist doctrine. How innocent are those who provide a camp these cutthroats and murderers? Witness the thousands slaughtered in the Swat valley and hundreds of thousands left homeless. Anyone who runs with these monsters can never be described as "innocent." The kill radius of a hellfire missile is roughly 200 feet. So you must be living in very close quarters with the Taliban et al to become a collateral casualty. And these are fired in the rocks and boulders of badlands in Pakistan, not metropolitan areas. The only way a person is there, is if they are part of the Taliban camp. and that eliminates any presumption of innocence.
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

jamesrage said:
... ...
I am pretty sure criminals in our own country are a bigger threat to us than terrorists on the other side of the globe are.
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If there was a 55/50 chance that 9-11 could have been stopped with a timely drone strike that would possibly have a dozen innocents killed, say wives or gardeners, you would have been against it?
 
Re: Should it be okay for other nations to send drones into your country to kill or s

OhIsee.Then said:
If there was a 55/50 chance that 9-11 could have been stopped with a timely drone strike that would possibly have a dozen innocents killed, say wives or gardeners, you would have been against it?
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if the strike were not ordered and the decision to not order it was ever made public, I'd devote my life to impeaching those responsible.
If the President at the time were a Republican, the press would join me.
 
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