View Poll Results: Do you support this Gas price idea?

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  • Part of it, I will explain in a post.

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Thread: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

  1. #21
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    2: its better becasue a $1 gas tax does nothing to remove US prices from world prices.
    That's what I'm asking. Why do we want to remove US prices from world prices in the first place? Why is this whole goal a good thing? What does it accomplish?

    3: How can you hord somthing that is already limited? I said USA share of gas. If you are allowed to buy 100 gal gas, 40 diesel, 10 premium, month, then they can keep the points, use them, or sell them to high gas consumers.
    It's quite simple: I buy my share of $1 gas. Then I go find someone who doesn't drive and buy their share of gas. Then I do that with a couple million different people, take the gas to Canada, and sell it at the REAL price. A risk-free profit...and if I can think of that scheme in 30 seconds, you can bet that there will be large businesses that spring up doing exactly that.

    Actual gas is not effected. its only "points" that is effected.
    Low gas users will use the little gas they need, and sell the points to high gas consumers.
    In other words, it will function exactly like a market? And they can sell these points for whatever price they want? How is that any different than just selling a gallon of gas for whatever price they want? What does the introduction of the "point system" accomplish?

    High consumers will get by useing USA share, buying a few points as needed, and if they REALLY use lots of gas, then be forced to buy imported gas.
    The US produces about 5.7 million barrels of oil per day, and consumes about 18.9 million barrels per day. In other words, even if all US-produced oil was consumed in the US, it would only be about 30% of our total demand. The other 70% would be taxed at your insane $9 per gallon rate.

    And remind me again, what exactly is the point of making sure US-produced oil stays in the US, and foreign-produced oil stays out?

    Yes I have studied ecomonics. Lots since "free trade" has F**** me out of a life now.

    Read "free trade doesnt work" and learn..........along with "when the wolf finallly came"

    I dont "compete" with slaves. I kill slaves or shut them out. You will also note USA has been protectionist for 95% of its history........
    So oil workers in foreign countries are slaves? What?
    Are you aware that oil is one of the most capital-intensive (i.e. least dependent on labor costs) industries in the world? Since labor costs are practically IRRELEVANT to the oil trade, you don't need to worry competing against "slaves" or anyone else. Furthermore, it's not like US oil is just sitting unused because no one will buy it...virtually ALL oil produced is sold.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Doesn't matter who says that, it's the truth.

    You are advocating a rationing card, this has nothing to do whatsoever with "affording it". You are advocating market controls, which never work economically, I'll give you a for instance, people who have travel heavy jobs would be limited to the same allotment as the little old lady who goes grocery shopping once a week and church on sundays. What will a commuter do when their allotment runs out? Can you answer that? And what economic fallout do you expect in the aggregate if your numbers bear out to lost production?

    You are dangerously close to being insulting here. First, business exists for profit, "sharing" isn't a viable economic system which is why communism never quite gets off the ground. Markets tend to like it when a supply and demand curve is based upon equitable value, production, and trade.
    rationing worked just fine in WW2. And its not a ration card, you can buy all you want.

    market controls are for all things........and they work fine too. Your "free Trrade" does not exist except for illegal things.

    Those with travel heavy jobs would have gas paid by the employer. I am only talking personal consumption.

    Those that use lots of gas would pay more over all, and those that conserve would get more cash from high gas users. Dont like it? To bad.
    THose that use lots can buy all they want, use there allowed amount, then buy others points, then buy world priced gas to no limit.

    Sharing works. it just hurts profits. Kind of like 50 people paying $1 month using one internet connection for $50 month. Instead of 50 people paying $40 month LMAO!
    Communism works great, its called the Library, roads, Firemen, police..........etc etc etc
    Last edited by 274ina; 10-25-12 at 03:21 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Human nature seem to be to complain about things you do not want to spend your money on when prices rise but barely utter a peep when price rise on things we want. Milk or gas up 25%, someone has to do something about these prices! Ipods or wii's up 25%, meh.

    Im willing to bet that nearly all americans could cut fuel consumption down by either being more efficient with their habits (no more running up to the store for an energy drink, or a getting a pizza, ect on tuesday when they can wait until saturday when they typically go to the store) or by reducing their driving speeds. My house only puts about 2k miles a year on the car, granted I worked from home but even when I worked out of home 5k yearly was about the norm, we planned and made minimal trips into town. But people do not seem to be very willing to sacrifice anything unless forced to, instead they will expect someone else to find a solution to the problem and complain all the way.

    With that said, Im just not sold onto electric cars. Everything that I have read really failed to convince me that they were any more eco friendly and less polluting then their standard counterparts when all things are considered, that leaves fuel availability and production. I would like to work away from foreign reliance of resources as much as possible and I think this is where the electric car can shine, at least for the moment....

    Synthetic Fuel Made From Air and Water

    An English company called Air Fuel Synthesis has begun producing gasoline (petrol) directly from air and water. Using carbon capture technology to sequester CO2 out of the atmosphere, and electrolysis to crack water into its constuituent hydrogen and oxygen, the company's process then combines the hydrogen and carbon dioxide to create synthetic gasoline or other fuels.

  4. #24
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    Human nature seem to be to complain about things you do not want to spend your money on when prices rise but barely utter a peep when price rise on things we want. Milk or gas up 25%, someone has to do something about these prices! Ipods or wii's up 25%, meh.
    I agree with this. I think the main reason people are so outraged by gas prices as opposed to those other things is because they're constantly reminded of gas prices by giant signs on gas stations...rather than because there is anything actually outrageous about them.
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's what I'm asking. Why do we want to remove US prices from world prices in the first place? Why is this whole goal a good thing? What does it accomplish?
    If our own industry picked up and we went into surplus we would need to go into the export market and sell. Countries in the petroleum trade would not forget the slight on their exports at that time and the protectionism would come back to bite us. This is something many protectionists don't understand that in a global market trade works both ways.



    It's quite simple: I buy my share of $1 gas. Then I go find someone who doesn't drive and buy their share of gas. Then I do that with a couple million different people, take the gas to Canada, and sell it at the REAL price. A risk-free profit...and if I can think of that scheme in 30 seconds, you can bet that there will be large businesses that spring up doing exactly that.
    Yep. Points systems only lead to hording and a middle man willing to sell off their own surplus, might as well just go directly to market as it's more efficient.



    In other words, it will function exactly like a market? And they can sell these points for whatever price they want? How is that any different than just selling a gallon of gas for whatever price they want? What does the introduction of the "point system" accomplish?
    First rule of economics, no matter the scale individuals always drive the market, there is no way to get around that dynamic. Individuals will either trade free or trade around regulations to fulfill demand.



    The US produces about 5.7 million barrels of oil per day, and consumes about 18.9 million barrels per day. In other words, even if all US-produced oil was consumed in the US, it would only be about 30% of our total demand. The other 70% would be taxed at your insane $9 per gallon rate.

    And remind me again, what exactly is the point of making sure US-produced oil stays in the US, and foreign-produced oil stays out?
    I agree, the numbers don't line up.


    So oil workers in foreign countries are slaves? What?
    Are you aware that oil is one of the most capital-intensive (i.e. least dependent on labor costs) industries in the world? Since labor costs are practically IRRELEVANT to the oil trade, you don't need to worry competing against "slaves" or anyone else. Furthermore, it's not like US oil is just sitting unused because no one will buy it...virtually ALL oil produced is sold.
    This last paragraph prompted me to respond. A healthy percentage of "foreign" oil workers are actually U.S. citizens, generalists tend to make 1.5-2X pay to go to other countries like S.A., U.A.E, Brazil and specialists tend to make 2-3X pay.
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's what I'm asking. Why do we want to remove US prices from world prices in the first place? Why is this whole goal a good thing? What does it accomplish?

    274 - Its so USA people dont have to pay Iran or war premiums or pay more for currency manipulation.

    It's quite simple: I buy my share of $1 gas. Then I go find someone who doesn't drive and buy their share of gas. Then I do that with a couple million different people, take the gas to Canada, and sell it at the REAL price. A risk-free profit...and if I can think of that scheme in 30 seconds, you can bet that there will be large businesses that spring up doing exactly that.

    274 - Selling the USA gas to anyone out side USA is banned.......as I said

    In other words, it will function exactly like a market? And they can sell these points for whatever price they want? How is that any different than just selling a gallon of gas for whatever price they want? What does the introduction of the "point system" accomplish?

    274 - it is differnt because the low gas users will get the cash from High gas users. Benefitsing those with scooters and electric cars, and punishing those with hummers.

    The US produces about 5.7 million barrels of oil per day, and consumes about 18.9 million barrels per day. In other words, even if all US-produced oil was consumed in the US, it would only be about 30% of our total demand. The other 70% would be taxed at your insane $9 per gallon rate.

    And remind me again, what exactly is the point of making sure US-produced oil stays in the US, and foreign-produced oil stays out?

    274 - to be energy independant, and to stop punishing the USA poor. you cant use mackro figures. 48% of USA oil use is for gas/cars. Only this aand diesel would be included, after subtracing use
    for say 80% of commercial needs.



    So oil workers in foreign countries are slaves? What?
    Are you aware that oil is one of the most capital-intensive (i.e. least dependent on labor costs) industries in the world? Since labor costs are practically IRRELEVANT to the oil trade, you don't need to worry competing against "slaves" or anyone else. Furthermore, it's not like US oil is just sitting unused because no one will buy it...virtually ALL oil produced is sold.
    I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.

  7. #27
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    rationing worked just fine in WW2. And its not a ration card, you can buy all you want.
    Two things;
    1) Rationing didn't work in WW2, people were selling and trading ration cards left and right. Cartoonists were lampooning the effort in the pre-movie shorts.
    2) At least there was a constitutional reason to ration, it was a war based effort that fell within powers of the federal government. Rationing was still not effective, there were PLENTY of frontline shortages.

    market controls are for all things........and they work fine too. Your "free Trrade" does not exist except for illegal things.
    Care to explain why? I already know the answer to this but want to guage your grasp of economics.

    Those with travel heavy jobs would have gas paid by the employer. I am only talking personal consumption.
    You are very wrong on that. Plenty of employers pay more to their employees rather than pay a gas card, and there are tons of contractors who work independently.

    Those that use lots of gas would pay less over all, and those that conserve would get more cash from high gas users. Dont like it? To bad.
    THose that use lots can buy all they want, use there allowed amount, then buy others points, then buy world priced gas to no limit.
    This is just economically impossible. You cannot produce more and use less.

    Sharing works. it just hurts profits. Kind of like 50 people paying $1 month using one internet connection for $50 month. Instead of 50 people paying $40 month LMAO!
    Communism works great, its called the Library, roads, Firemen, police..........etc etc etc
    You do not understand communism apparently and where it has failed.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.
    Your idea is mathematically flawed. We can't produce enough oil domestically to meet our needs.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  9. #29
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Your idea is mathematically flawed. We can't produce enough oil domestically to meet our needs.
    And that is if we had a singular fuel with a static demand. When one considers that the same gallon of oil produces diesel, gasoline, kerosine(jet fuel is a similar composition of higher grade), heating oil, distillates, and lubricating oils all adjusted according to current market demand it makes no sense to artificially limit the gallons up for consumption or segregate them. It's already a complicated mathmatical formula just to insure there are no shortages as is.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  10. #30
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    Re: Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    274 - Its so USA people dont have to pay Iran or war premiums or pay more for currency manipulation.
    First of all, the US doesn't import any oil from Iran. Fail.
    Second of all, only 12.9% of our oil supply comes from the entire Persian Gulf REGION. Canada alone supplies us with more oil than all of those countries.
    And I have no idea what your offhand reference to "currency manipulation" has to do with oil, but I'm going to assume it's just some random rambling instead of an actual economic point.

    274 - Selling the USA gas to anyone out side USA is banned.......as I said
    If the profit is there, it's going to happen whether it's banned or not. If the REAL price of gas is $3.50 a gallon and I can buy it at $1 a gallon, there is so much opportunity for profit that you can be sure someone will do it. This will lead to a shortage of $1 gasoline and leave most consumers paying your insane $9 rate.

    274 - it is differnt because the low gas users will get the cash from High gas users. Benefitsing those with scooters and electric cars, and punishing those with hummers.
    Why wouldn't a simple gas tax/rebate do exactly the same thing? It benefits those who don't use much gasoline, at the expense of those who do. Tax everyone $1 per gallon of gas they consume, then cut everyone a check for the amount of revenue per capita. A much simpler scheme, same result. Minus the incomprehensible protectionism aspect of it.

    274 - to be energy independant, and to stop punishing the USA poor.
    Energy independence cannot be achieved by passing a law declaring it. That isn't how the real world works. I question why "energy independence" is even a worthwhile goal in the first place, but in any case it's simple math: The US only produces 30% of the amount of oil it consumes. That is a FACT, and no amount of legislative wand-waving changes it.

    you cant use mackro figures. 48% of USA oil use is for gas/cars. Only this aand diesel would be included, after subtracing use
    for say 80% of commercial needs.
    So only the oil that is used in gas would be taxed at this higher rate? Then the foreign oil would just be used in those other sectors instead. What would that accomplish?

    I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.
    OK, your argument is so incoherent and poorly thought out that I think I'm done here. Suffice it to say that your scheme doesn't work. Have a good day.
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