View Poll Results: Keep Electoral College or have direct elections?

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Thread: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

  1. #311
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You are still talking about Democracy as opposed to Representative Democracy. Please learn the difference. Representative democracy legal definition of Representative democracy. Representative democracy synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. A form of government where the powers of the sovereignty are delegated to a body of men, elected from time to time, who exercise them for the benefit of the whole nation. 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 31.

    A Law Dictionary, Adapted to the Constitution and Laws of the United States. By John Bouvier. Published 1856.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bouvier


    And whats this bull about rights are endowed by some mysterious creator? Are you saying that the only rights that individuals have are religious in nature?

    democracies create their own rights...a republican form of government rights are endowed, if people can create their own rights, they will create rights to every thing they desire, and make laws which violate rights of other people...this is why democracies fail...because of their excesses.

    direct democracy is a direct vote of the people on every issue, Representative democracy is you elect people to do the bidding of the people., but whether its direct or Representative, its still democracy and a democratic form of government.

    democratic forms of government are illegal in the Constitution.


    The Republican Form of government is one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, directly......... and indirectly by representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated ( state legislators). sovereignty is vested in the individual citizen----->individuals RETAIN sovereign prerogatives over their --->private property rights (absolute ownership) of their person, labor and property.

    The U.S. Constitution guarantees a republican form to the states. (See Art.4,Sec.4)

    in a democracy------>a democratic form of government, ---->in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the (whole body / collective society/ majority) of free citizens.......individuals DO NOT RETAIN sovereign prerogatives over their --->private property rights (absolute ownership) of their person, labor and property,because the WHOLE, CAN MAKE LAWS , OR CREATE RIGHTS ,which violate the rights of the minority...............IE........MAJORITY RULE/ MOB RULE.......this is why the founders hated democracy, because it violated natural rights, and democracies destroy themselves in time.
    Last edited by Master PO; 10-31-12 at 03:58 AM.

  2. #312
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    The USA is a representative democracy limited by a Constitution that has made many changes over the last 200 plus years. Changes have happened and changes will continue to happen. This is a natural progression as the country changes and our needs change. The post above reminds me of somebody convinced that they can go out to a beach on the oceanfront and really dig in their heels and push with all their might and they can hold back the incoming tide. You cannot stop the vast power causing change or the evolution of society no matter how much you did in your heels.

    ps. MAJORITY RULE is not MOB RULE.

    It is rather funny to see the musings of those who know their political ideology is now out of touch and out of favor try to come up with justification to ignore the will of the American people.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-31-12 at 10:59 AM.
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  3. #313
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    both government are close to one another. but here is the difference.

    democracy, is rights endowed by the people on themselves, and they can create any right or law.

    this means they can violate the rights of other people if the wish, because it is majority rule, there are no boundaries.

    and people elect their representatives directly, and with democracy, the executive branch, and the legislative branch are usually (1) entity.


    republican government rights are endowed by the creator, and government or the people, cannot create more rights or repeal rights.

    republican government has people elected directly by the people, and has those people elected by people....... elect other people to office your (senator) who looked out for the welfare of the state, and republican government has 3 branches, each separate, and each has it own power and cannot interfere with the powers of the other, states also have 3 branches....governor, legislative and state supreme court.

    federal......the people get their representation in the house of representatives, and STATE legislators get their representation from the senate....this is the "Connecticut compromise" and prevents the power of the federal government from passing laws on the states, without there approval.

    in republican government .."rights of the people are not able to be voted on"...in other words, your speech or YOUR PROPERTY CANNOT BE VOTED ON, property rights are an absolute, and government has not authority to tell you how to run your property..........democracy ..rights can be voted on by the majority, and taken away by the people/government.

    republican government protects the rights of the minority from the majority.


    this is a brief statement.
    The Constitution put in power the distant, sheltered, and elitist oligarchy that Constitutionazis are always complaining about. The fact that they think of the majority as a mob, as if in Zombieland, shows their unearned sense of superiority or their collaboration with the mobsters the Constitution appointed to rule over us.

    To free ourselves of the cages the elite put us in to protect themselves from an imaginary mob, we could start out with having a national referendum on any law that the Supreme Court declares unconstitutional. Eventually we should vote on as many laws as possible and the legislators will be only clerks who write the laws presented to us for approval.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  4. #314
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    The Constitution put in power the distant, sheltered, and elitist oligarchy that Constitutionazis are always complaining about. The fact that they think of the majority as a mob, as if in Zombieland, shows their unearned sense of superiority or their collaboration with the mobsters the Constitution appointed to rule over us.

    To free ourselves of the cages the elite put us in to protect themselves from an imaginary mob, we could start out with having a national referendum on any law that the Supreme Court declares unconstitutional. Eventually we should vote on as many laws as possible and the legislators will be only clerks who write the laws presented to us for approval.
    well we as a people could call for our own constitution convention, which the constitution says we can.

    but here is why TRUE republican government works: in republican government ....government is limited to ONLY the duties listed in the constitution. THIS KEEPS GOVERNMENT SMALL.

    the rich and powerful, big business, CANNOT LOBBY CONGRESS, because congress has only limited power of the constitution, and congress cannot do favors for them, give them loans, bail them out, make laws which benefit them only...because congresses authority is limited to only 18 duties and that is all.

    it is because congress has grown into a monster, because they don't follow the constitution ( and they openly say they don't follow the constitution) of the founders......that has allowed, ...the elite to cease power

  5. #315
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    democracies create their own rights...a republican form of government rights are endowed, if people can create their own rights, they will create rights to every thing they desire, and make laws which violate rights of other people...this is why democracies fail...because of their excesses.

    direct democracy is a direct vote of the people on every issue, Representative democracy is you elect people to do the bidding of the people., but whether its direct or Representative, its still democracy and a democratic form of government.

    democratic forms of government are illegal in the Constitution.


    The Republican Form of government is one in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, directly......... and indirectly by representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated ( state legislators). sovereignty is vested in the individual citizen----->individuals RETAIN sovereign prerogatives over their --->private property rights (absolute ownership) of their person, labor and property.

    The U.S. Constitution guarantees a republican form to the states. (See Art.4,Sec.4)

    in a democracy------>a democratic form of government, ---->in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the (whole body / collective society/ majority) of free citizens.......individuals DO NOT RETAIN sovereign prerogatives over their --->private property rights (absolute ownership) of their person, labor and property,because the WHOLE, CAN MAKE LAWS , OR CREATE RIGHTS ,which violate the rights of the minority...............IE........MAJORITY RULE/ MOB RULE.......this is why the founders hated democracy, because it violated natural rights, and democracies destroy themselves in time.
    Obviously the word Democracy blinds you so much that you cannot understand simple written English. You are so blind that you cannot understand that Republican Government is also called a Representative Democracy.

    democratic forms of government are illegal in the Constitution. Lol then what is the point of this?

    U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 4


    Tell me how the people can control a country if they cannot vote? You do realize that voting is a form of democratic government dont you? Our entire Government depends on voting .

    The Congress votes do they not? When the yays win that means that a majority got their way.

    I think that you need to go back to primary level of education and learn about Governments and how they work. You seem to have a severe misunderstanding of what you are talking about.

  6. #316
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Obviously the word Democracy blinds you so much that you cannot understand simple written English. You are so blind that you cannot understand that Republican Government is also called a Representative Democracy.

    democratic forms of government are illegal in the Constitution. Lol then what is the point of this?

    U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 4


    Tell me how the people can control a country if they cannot vote? You do realize that voting is a form of democratic government dont you? Our entire Government depends on voting .

    The Congress votes do they not? When the yays win that means that a majority got their way.

    I think that you need to go back to primary level of education and learn about Governments and how they work. You seem to have a severe misunderstanding of what you are talking about.

    the word democracy appears NO WHERE in the founding documents, or the constitutions of all 50 states.

    YOU vote in democracy, and YOU vote in republican government...what is the difference?

    democracy, power is more concentrated in fewer hands.....you the (people) VOTE for a president by popular vote, you vote for you representatives through a popular vote, and they represent you and YOUR interest.

    and those... the people have elected work, and do what the people want of them, and this means anything, they can create laws, which take away the rights of people, they can abolish previous rights .....if the people say they can.

    this is why rights are NOT SECURE IN DEMOCRACIES.


    republican government power in more distributed out, more complex, you vote and the electoral college elects the president , you vote and you elect your congressmen, you vote and you elect your STATE legislators...WHO elect your senator, the people don't elect the senator, and the senator votes according to what your state legislators, TELL HIM TO VOTE FOR.

    this makes the senator accountable to the state, the federal government cannot pass laws, mandates on the states, because the state instructs there senators on how to vote, because the legislators of the state are looking out for the interest of the STATE, and the people of that state.


    the house of representatives is know as " the people's house" IE....PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE...they look out for the interest of the people .....they serve.

    the senate is for the STATE LEGISLATORS REPRESENTATION ( the officials the people of a state elected) and they look out for the interest of .......the state itself.

    those people elected by you (the people) and those elected by ( your states legislator) work for the interest of the (people and the states)...but those elected officials, CANNOT created new rights, abolish previous rights.......rights are secure, they are unalienable.

    in republican forms of government the people..... that the people elect, and the people thru referendums CAN VOTE, on political matters or matters of the public..................BUT THEY OR THE PEOPLE CANNOT VOTE ON MATTER OF RIGHTS...........meaning.... smoking bans on private property, are unconstitutional, because the people CANNOT vote on what a private business can do with his OWN property.

    the problem with democracy is there are no LIMITS ON THE PEOPLE, and people create there own destruction, by the excesses of what the population creates....

    republican government constrains the people , by the laws of a constitution, and they cannot create ANY law they wish, the people rights are limited in they power, so they cant create excesses of government........rights to everything they want, creating laws, which infringe on the rights of other people...usually the minority.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=KFXuGIpsdE0

    this is an excellent video
    Last edited by Master PO; 10-31-12 at 03:45 PM.

  7. #317
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The USA is a representative democracy limited by a Constitution that has made many changes over the last 200 plus years. Changes have happened and changes will continue to happen. This is a natural progression as the country changes and our needs change. The post above reminds me of somebody convinced that they can go out to a beach on the oceanfront and really dig in their heels and push with all their might and they can hold back the incoming tide. You cannot stop the vast power causing change or the evolution of society no matter how much you did in your heels.

    ps. MAJORITY RULE is not MOB RULE.

    It is rather funny to see the musings of those who know their political ideology is now out of touch and out of favor try to come up with justification to ignore the will of the American people.
    all you think you know, your traditional thinking of government ..i turn on its head.

    because i have read what the founders created, yes government has changed things, ..that is very much correct, but not constitutional, because they have not stricken things from the constitution, ...like its guarantee.

    Madison says and long as their is federal government....... it will guarantee ...republican government

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=KFXuGIpsdE0
    Last edited by Master PO; 10-31-12 at 04:34 PM.

  8. #318
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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the word democracy appears NO WHERE in the founding documents, or the constitutions of all 50 states.

    YOU vote in democracy, and YOU vote in republican government...what is the difference?

    democracy, power is more concentrated in fewer hands.....you the (people) VOTE for a president by popular vote, you vote for you representatives through a popular vote, and they represent you and YOUR interest.

    and those... the people have elected work, and do what the people want of them, and this means anything, they can create laws, which take away the rights of people, they can abolish previous rights .....if the people say they can.

    this is why rights are NOT SECURE IN DEMOCRACIES.


    republican government power in more distributed out, more complex, you vote and the electoral college elects the president , you vote and you elect your congressmen, you vote and you elect your STATE legislators...WHO elect your senator, the people don't elect the senator, and the senator votes according to what your state legislators, TELL HIM TO VOTE FOR.

    this makes the senator accountable to the state, the federal government cannot pass laws, mandates on the states, because the state instructs there senators on how to vote, because the legislators of the state are looking out for the interest of the STATE, and the people of that state.


    the house of representatives is know as " the people's house" IE....PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE...they look out for the interest of the people .....they serve.

    the senate is for the STATE LEGISLATORS REPRESENTATION ( the officials the people of a state elected) and they look out for the interest of .......the state itself.

    those people elected by you (the people) and those elected by ( your states legislator) work for the interest of the (people and the states)...but those elected officials, CANNOT created new rights, abolish previous rights.......rights are secure, they are unalienable.

    in republican forms of government the people..... that the people elect, and the people thru referendums CAN VOTE, on political matters or matters of the public..................BUT THEY OR THE PEOPLE CANNOT VOTE ON MATTER OF RIGHTS...........meaning.... smoking bans on private property, are unconstitutional, because the people CANNOT vote on what a private business can do with his OWN property.

    the problem with democracy is there are no LIMITS ON THE PEOPLE, and people create there own destruction, by the excesses of what the population creates....

    republican government constrains the people , by the laws of a constitution, and they cannot create ANY law they wish, the people rights are limited in they power, so they cant create excesses of government........rights to everything they want, creating laws, which infringe on the rights of other people...usually the minority.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=KFXuGIpsdE0

    this is an excellent video

    Again you are confusing representative democracy with direct democracy. ANd to top it off you are basically defining a republican government in the same manner that everyone else defines Representative democracy. Of course you add some biased concepts to your definition in the hopes that your authority by you saying that you have read things that back your claims. But then earlier you admitted that this is all new to you that you are not through reading what the framers wrote. It is rather obvious that you are parroting Libertarian radicals and you prove that by providing a link to a video that right away starts with a misrepresentation of what is taught in schools and what is claimed in history. No one is claiming that we do not live in a Republic (well except you and your friends) .

    I will venture that no matter how many times that I tell you that historically a Republican Government and a Representative democracy as applied to the US are the same thing exact thing just different was of saying that you will comeback as if I am trying to assert pure democracy instead.


    You even said it yourself that our Government is designed with checks to hedge corruption. We vote to tell Representative's what we want as a people with one voice. There is no way around that set up that isnt a dictatorship. We have a democracy that is checked by Representatives of all sections of society. But it is by no means a pure direct democracy. You simply lack the understanding just what exactly a Republican form of Government really is. And you are stuck on the many places where this countries fore father talked against pure direct democracy not recognizing that direct democracy is but one of many dirrect forms of democracy. Did you understand that? that there is not just one type of democracy?

    Outline of democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In this list it shows you 41 different types of democracy, anywhere from totalitarianism to a Republic.. Yes I just said Republic.



    The Constitution on many subjects is vague at best. Plus words had different meanings when the Constitution was written. You are not special as in you are not the only person that has studied the writings of this countries forefather nor will you be the last. If you have truly have done these studies then you should be aware that that these same forefathers of this country thought that we the people call the shots and is the purpose to maintain the right to bear arms. Just remember how once before that we the people shoved the Federalists out of power and we will keep doing it over and over again. In other words the opponents are the same people you keep asserting as your proof. People Jefferson and Madison fought hard to rid this country of the Federalist party. Libertarians are nothing more than a Renascence of the Federalist party.


    Jeffersonian democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If you knew what you were talking about you would drop this inaccurate anti-democracy crusade and join Jeffersonism since it actually made logical sense rather than make ignorant talking points while avoiding the meat of the conversation.

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    Re: Time for direct democracy - end electorial college?[W:193]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    Your "we" here is obviously not "we, the people." Which isolated, sheltered, and conceited clique do you mean by "we"? And why do you identify yourself with people who have as much contempt for those who support their elitism as they do for us, the people? Are you hoping that they will appoint you to be one of their new unelected Senators?
    First, since a bulk of the American people have no idea how federalism works then maybe you are correct. Second, I haven’t seen a well this poisoned for a decade. Do you mean, which marginal group of the American people understand how federalism works? Third, I identify myself with people who understand federalism, republicanism and how the separation of powers was supposed to work. Fourth, Senators are elected under the original plan so shall I assume you are part of the bulk?
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

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