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Is the public school system an unnatural social environment?

Is the public school system an unnatural social environment?


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Peter Grimm

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This is a reaction to this story: Bullied Canadian teen leaves behind chilling YouTube video - CNN.com

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In my opinion, the social learning environment created by the public school system is artificial, unnatural, and potentially harmful.

Here's what I mean. The knee-jerk reaction people have to this story is to blame the bullies. But the reality is, those bullies are ALSO CHILDREN. The problem is the system, not the bullies.

The problem is that we have 40 kids to every teacher, that teachers aren't always the best examples of how an adult should behave, and that children are robbed en-masse of the opportunity to socialize with people with a higher level of maturity than themselves.

Our brains are NOT WIRED for the public school system.

Look at the way primates do it. They have "social groups" that include apes of all ages. You never see all the young monkeys in a corner while the adults hunt for ants. The young ones are around the mature ones all the time, learning by osmosis.

Look at the way hunter-gatherer tribes do it.

Young people are PROGRAMMED to learn from adults and older children. From interacting, seeing, imitating.

**We are not evolutionarily programmed to spend our formative years learning from OTHER immature people. This type of suicide is EXACTLY what happens when you have the blind learning from the blind, so to speak.

The bullies didn't know any better, and this poor girl was lost and didn't know her place in the world.

She should have had people in her life of all ages and maturity levels. She should have had people in her life in their early teens, late teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and older. This is how we are meant to learn and adjust to the world around us. Instead, her entire peer group, the people she learned about herself from, were no more mature than she. That is simply not the way it was meant to be.

Thoughts?
 
This is a reaction to this story: Bullied Canadian teen leaves behind chilling YouTube video - CNN.com

---

In my opinion, the social learning environment created by the public school system is artificial, unnatural, and potentially harmful.

Here's what I mean. The knee-jerk reaction people have to this story is to blame the bullies. But the reality is, those bullies are ALSO CHILDREN. The problem is the system, not the bullies.

The problem is that we have 40 kids to every teacher, that teachers aren't always the best examples of how an adult should behave, and that children are robbed en-masse of the opportunity to socialize with people with a higher level of maturity than themselves.

Our brains are NOT WIRED for the public school system.

Look at the way primates do it. They have "social groups" that include apes of all ages. You never see all the young monkeys in a corner while the adults hunt for ants. The young ones are around the mature ones all the time, learning by osmosis.

Look at the way hunter-gatherer tribes do it.

Young people are PROGRAMMED to learn from adults and older children. From interacting, seeing, imitating.

**We are not evolutionarily programmed to spend our formative years learning from OTHER immature people. This type of suicide is EXACTLY what happens when you have the blind learning from the blind, so to speak.

The bullies didn't know any better, and this poor girl was lost and didn't know her place in the world.

She should have had people in her life of all ages and maturity levels. She should have had people in her life in their early teens, late teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and older. This is how we are meant to learn and adjust to the world around us. Instead, her entire peer group, the people she learned about herself from, were no more mature than she. That is simply not the way it was meant to be.

Thoughts?

Weird. I just started a post about social media inspired by this same story. It's rather clear from my post that I found a different medium altogether to be responsible for this sort of thing. In my opinion it is NOT the school setting. It's the internet and social media connectivity.
 
Most bullies know that what they're doing is not socially acceptable or appropriate. Just like most thieves know stealing isn't right.

That's really the only portion of the OP I felt like commenting on. I don't agree with anything that was written, but the line on the bullies not knowing any better was particularly retarded.
 
You were never mean to another kid when you were 14?

Most bullies know that what they're doing is not socially acceptable or appropriate. Just like most thieves know stealing isn't right.

That's really the only portion of the OP I felt like commenting on. I don't agree with anything that was written, but the line on the bullies not knowing any better was particularly retarded.
 
It's not an issue of being able to understand that it's bad, it's the ability to get away with it. Kids are young and naturally cowardly, so many who can think of bullying things to say wouldn't have the balls to do it to another kid's face. But when they can bully from the safe distance of their home using the internet, where there is little to no adult monitoring of that behavior, THAT is the difference between today's bully and the typical schoolyard bully 30 years ago.
 
This is a reaction to this story: Bullied Canadian teen leaves behind chilling YouTube video - CNN.com

---

In my opinion, the social learning environment created by the public school system is artificial, unnatural, and potentially harmful.

Here's what I mean. The knee-jerk reaction people have to this story is to blame the bullies. But the reality is, those bullies are ALSO CHILDREN. The problem is the system, not the bullies.

The problem is that we have 40 kids to every teacher, that teachers aren't always the best examples of how an adult should behave, and that children are robbed en-masse of the opportunity to socialize with people with a higher level of maturity than themselves.

Our brains are NOT WIRED for the public school system.

Look at the way primates do it. They have "social groups" that include apes of all ages. You never see all the young monkeys in a corner while the adults hunt for ants. The young ones are around the mature ones all the time, learning by osmosis.

Look at the way hunter-gatherer tribes do it.

Young people are PROGRAMMED to learn from adults and older children. From interacting, seeing, imitating.

**We are not evolutionarily programmed to spend our formative years learning from OTHER immature people. This type of suicide is EXACTLY what happens when you have the blind learning from the blind, so to speak.

The bullies didn't know any better, and this poor girl was lost and didn't know her place in the world.

She should have had people in her life of all ages and maturity levels. She should have had people in her life in their early teens, late teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and older. This is how we are meant to learn and adjust to the world around us. Instead, her entire peer group, the people she learned about herself from, were no more mature than she. That is simply not the way it was meant to be.

Thoughts?


Do you have a solution then? Are you saying that home schooling is the best option?
 
When I was 14, I both bullied other kids and was bullied myself. I knew better, but didn't have the maturity of an adult to fully understand the consequences that can have on someone else's life.

What I needed at that age wasn't a 60 year old schoolmarm who had 40 other screaming kids to control, I needed an older kid to set me straight and tell me to quit being a punk.

The bully is just as much a victim here as the girl who shot herself. Those kids are going to live with guilt the rest of their lives.

That I recall, no.

But even if I had, it wouldn't negate my point, because at 14 I knew bullying was bad.
 
Do you have a solution then? Are you saying that home schooling is the best option?

No point asking for a solution if we haven't done well to identify the problem.
 
This is a reaction to this story: Bullied Canadian teen leaves behind chilling YouTube video - CNN.com

In my opinion, the social learning environment created by the public school system is artificial, unnatural, and potentially harmful.

Here's what I mean. The knee-jerk reaction people have to this story is to blame the bullies. But the reality is, those bullies are ALSO CHILDREN. The problem is the system, not the bullies.

The problem is that we have 40 kids to every teacher, that teachers aren't always the best examples of how an adult should behave, and that children are robbed en-masse of the opportunity to socialize with people with a higher level of maturity than themselves.

Our brains are NOT WIRED for the public school system.

Look at the way primates do it. They have "social groups" that include apes of all ages. You never see all the young monkeys in a corner while the adults hunt for ants. The young ones are around the mature ones all the time, learning by osmosis.

Look at the way hunter-gatherer tribes do it.

Young people are PROGRAMMED to learn from adults and older children. From interacting, seeing, imitating.

**We are not evolutionarily programmed to spend our formative years learning from OTHER immature people. This type of suicide is EXACTLY what happens when you have the blind learning from the blind, so to speak.

The bullies didn't know any better, and this poor girl was lost and didn't know her place in the world.

She should have had people in her life of all ages and maturity levels. She should have had people in her life in their early teens, late teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and older. This is how we are meant to learn and adjust to the world around us. Instead, her entire peer group, the people she learned about herself from, were no more mature than she. That is simply not the way it was meant to be.

Thoughts?

The fact that children spend 6 hours a day in school interacting with other children isn't the problem. It's the social networking that's the problem, in my opinion. Back in the day, I went to school, then came home and played with a few kids in the neighborhood that my parents knew and approved of -- after homework/after dinner in the summertime. The rest of the time I was interacting with my parents and our extended family -- adults and children alike.

Today, parents buy their kids cellphones in the 4th grade. They're never out of touch with "the tribe." Think "Lord of the Flies." Ha! That's the danger, in my opinion. Social networking on Facebook, MySpace, YouTube; incessant texting. They're getting immersed in a social world that's warped. Warped by immature minds gone wild, if you will.

Parents have no time. Take no time. Even "good parents" involve their kids in so many activities that they become taxi drivers, driving the kids to games/events three or four nights a week. What the hell? What happened to family time? I know of families so damned busy that they don't even eat together. They'll stand at the counter and wolf down cereal for dinner. Separately. Yeah, that makes for a well-adjusted child.

It's not schools. It's parents. They have the ultimate control over their children lives as they grow up and choose not to exercise it. "Everybody does it, Mom!!!!" Well, my mom would have said, "Well, that's just fine. But our house isn't everybody."
 
No point asking for a solution if we haven't done well to identify the problem.

What i was getting at is if he thinks sending kids to public/private schools is not good for building social skills, then what kind of environment should they been in to be educated.
 
Do you have a solution then? Are you saying that home schooling is the best option?

Young people need to spend more time at the workplace, honestly. That's my answer. Corporations need to be responsible for educating the next generation.

Let's not say that our job as adults is to shield young people from the world. Our job is to socialize young people and prepare them to stand on their own two feet.
 
The Lord of the Flies reference is perfect.

The fact that children spend 6 hours a day in school interacting with other children isn't the problem. It's the social networking that's the problem, in my opinion. Back in the day, I went to school, then came home and played with a few kids in the neighborhood that my parents knew and approved of -- after homework/after dinner in the summertime. The rest of the time I was interacting with my parents and our extended family -- adults and children alike.

Today, parents buy their kids cellphones in the 4th grade. They're never out of touch with "the tribe." Think "Lord of the Flies." Ha! That's the danger, in my opinion. Social networking on Facebook, MySpace, YouTube; incessant texting. They're getting immersed in a social world that's warped. Warped by immature minds gone wild, if you will.

Parents have no time. Take no time. Even "good parents" involve their kids in so many activities that they become taxi drivers, driving the kids to games/events three or four nights a week. What the hell? What happened to family time? I know of families so damned busy that they don't even eat together. They'll stand at the counter and wolf down cereal for dinner. Separately. Yeah, that makes for a well-adjusted child.

It's not schools. It's parents. They have the ultimate control over their children lives as they grow up and choose not to exercise it. "Everybody does it, Mom!!!!" Well, my mom would have said, "Well, that's just fine. But our house isn't everybody."
 
Young people need to spend more time at the workplace, honestly. That's my answer. Corporations need to be responsible for educating the next generation.

Let's not say that our job as adults is to shield young people from the world. Our job is to socialize young people and prepare them to stand on their own two feet.

but you realize that bullies can be young as 6/7/8 yrs old
You want to employee them to learn to be mature? Where are they going to get an education? Dont say by working either.
Can you elaborate?
 
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but you realize that bullies can be young as 6/7/8 yrs old
You want them to employee them to learn to be mature? Where are they going to get an education? Dont say by working either.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have ANY public education. I think 8 hours a day, plus like Maggie says the social media world after that, is too much of a bad thing.

My instincts tell me it should be 50/50. Spend 4 hours a day learning to read and write, and the other 4 learning real world skills. Spend a few months at one company, and rotate.

There just needs to be more healthy interaction with kids of different ages and different types of adults so they can learn. In my mind, it's not normal for a 15 year old girl's entire world to consist of other 15 year olds. That's a purely modern and artificial construct.
 
I'm not saying we shouldn't have ANY public education. I think 8 hours a day, plus like Maggie says the social media world after that, is too much of a bad thing.

My instincts tell me it should be 50/50. Spend 4 hours a day learning to read and write, and the other 4 learning real world skills. Spend a few months at one company, and rotate.

There just needs to be more healthy interaction with kids of different ages and different types of adults so they can learn. In my mind, it's not normal for a 15 year old girl's entire world to consist of other 15 year olds. That's a purely modern and artificial construct.


I too, agree with maggies post. However, ill add another reason for parents not being involved. I think it has very much to do "American Way"/"Capitalism". It's the materialist mentality. Our society says make as much money as you possibley can by working 7 days a week 12hrs a day. This is one of the breakdowns. Then you have parents that have to work 2 jobs just to make ends meet. This is, yet another breakdown. Both of these examples leaves the kid at home alone for hours on end.

My wife is a teacher, and as of now, there's not enough time in the day to teach everything that they are supposed to. Cutting education down to 4 hours a day is not a good idea. If anything, perhaps 1-2 hrs more is needed in the day.
 
The way it is right now, work life and family life are totally split and separate. I don't think that's a good thing for the psyche.

I think hard work is good for the soul, it makes you feel accomplished. Imagine back in the day before there were public schools and roads and cars.... everyone had a family farm. Dad would plow the field, mom would milk the cow, little Johnny would collect eggs, and life is good. Guess what, Johnny is going to be a good farmer by the time he grows up.

Today, we send him off to 8 hours a day of schooling with 40 other kids in his class, where he can learn how to farm from a textbook and an old lady who's never done anything but teach.

All I'm saying is why should corporations get to do all the taking.... they take our labor.... but they don't have to be involved with the community at all? They should play a role in educating the next generation.

I too, agree with maggies post. However, ill add another reason for parents not being involved. I think it has very much to do "American Way"/"Capitalism". It's the materialist mentality. Our society says make as much money as you possibley can by working 7 days a week 12hrs a day. This is one of the breakdowns. Then you have parents that have to work 2 jobs just to make ends meet. This is, yet another breakdown. Both of these examples leaves the kid at home alone for hours on end.

My wife is a teacher, and as of now, there's not enough time in the day to teach everything that they are supposed to. Cutting education down to 4 hours a day is not a good idea. If anything, perhaps 1-2 hrs more is needed in the day.
 
The school yard and the prison exercise yard are very similar. When you have a kid getting set up for a gang beat down, well, that's what inmate gangs do.

There's no hope for humanity. We are all scourges and that's all we'll ever be.
 
Its perfectly natural. Its a shame that people bully and commit suicide but thats just part of life. It sucks i know, but its life.
 
Its perfectly natural. Its a shame that people bully and commit suicide but thats just part of life. It sucks i know, but its life.

Your entire shtick goes to such lengths to absolve today's adults of any responsibility over their own lives, their children's, or the state of the nation, really over anything whatsoever, that I cannot even take you seriously and I have come to believe it's, well, like I said, a shtick. One who in fact despises the idea of socialism and so plays the part of a socialist to subtly reveal how backwards its ideals are.

I mean, look at your signature:

"Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

There is no way you actually believe the things you say. Defer all responsibility to the future generations? The world is ours to ransack? Nah. I'm not buying it.
 
Our current school system is VERY unnatural, especially when it comes to high school. High school is like putting a bunch of wild animals in a small cage and hoping they all survive. I agree with your thoughts exactly, TC.

I think massive reforms in the educational system are necessary. The idea of K-12 grades should really be eliminated past 5th or 6th grade, and instead there should be more individualized options for kids to take classes at whatever level they are at. This could easily be done through computerized teaching, which for many children is more effective than the standard in the classroom teaching. For the kids who would do better in the classroom, they can have that option available.
 
I think our system teaches children to be children, not adults. Then, when they graduate, they are expected to be adults. They're just older, not adults. Like the primates, the children must be part and parcel of living to learn responsibility, discipline, confront problems, solve problems, and be involved in the intricacies and complexities of adult living and decision-making. Raise adults, not children. Of course, our system is invested in the raising children method and it will be hard to change.
 
Your entire shtick goes to such lengths to absolve today's adults of any responsibility over their own lives,
Uhhh how am i doing that?

their children's, or the state of the nation, really over anything whatsoever, that I cannot even take you seriously and I have come to believe it's, well, like I said, a shtick.
Uhh what?

One who in fact despises the idea of socialism and so plays the part of a socialist to subtly reveal how backwards its ideals are.
Uhhh what?


I mean, look at your signature:

"Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
Uhh ok?


There is no way you actually believe the things you say. Defer all responsibility to the future generations? The world is ours to ransack? Nah. I'm not buying it.
Uhhh what?


:cuckoo:
 
I agree whole-heartedly and you worded it much better than I did.

I think our system teaches children to be children, not adults. Then, when they graduate, they are expected to be adults. They're just older, not adults. Like the primates, the children must be part and parcel of living to learn responsibility, discipline, confront problems, solve problems, and be involved in the intricacies and complexities of adult living and decision-making. Raise adults, not children. Of course, our system is invested in the raising children method and it will be hard to change.
 
Uhhh how am i doing that?

Uhh what?

Uhhh what?

Uhh ok?

Uhhh what?

Your apathy about these sorts of things rubs me the wrong way, and then I noticed your signature (which I hadn't noticed before).

In another thread I asked if youth's burgeoning access to internet and social media (including mobile broadband, webcams, etc.), which all directly relate to this story, is a good thing or a bad thing (and offered balanced options to say "mixed"), and you insouciantly say "It's a good thing" and offer no explanation.

And here you are with a different question on the same topic and your answer to this really upsetting story is basically, "Meh, **** happens. That's life."

Clearly you don't have kids, nor do you apparently give much thought to the type of society we're going to leave for them. "Enjoy it to the full, life is beautiful," you say. "Let the future generations figure it out."
 
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