View Poll Results: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • If given the orders, Yes.

    4 10.81%
  • If given the orders, No.

    25 67.57%
  • I'm not sure what I'd do/Other

    8 21.62%
Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 143

Thread: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

  1. #71
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    SE Asia
    Last Seen
    07-12-14 @ 10:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    2,333

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    I’m a soldier. I took an oath to defend the Constitution. If our government truly turned tyrannical I would be on the side of the rebels. But even on a smaller scale, the only thing that would make me shoot my fellow Americans is if they were trying to kill their fellow Americans. For example, if martial law were declared and there were Tea Partiers or OWSers practicing civil disobedience, and I were ordered to open fire on them (which I can’t imagine receiving such an order) I would refuse to obey the order. If they were trying to kill people, that would be a different story.

  2. #72
    Civil Libertarian
    DashingAmerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    08-31-17 @ 05:39 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    3,357

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    This thread topic stems from the conversations gathered in the thread at the bottom of this post.

    Basically it's about civillians taking up arms against the government should the government start becoming tyrannical.

    Somewhere along the way in that thread, it was mentiond that the U.S. military could squash any sort of rebellion. Mow them down.

    So I gots a question. If God forbid you're a soldier and you're ever ordered by your leaders to shoot fellow Americans, would you?

    Likewise, if you were a soldier, or even if you're a civillians, if you were given that sort of order as a soldier, what would you do?

    I'm asking this question 'cause I want to have some sense of security, knowing that our American soldiers won't be turned against us.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...post1061002943
    I feel that most people in the military would probably be part of the revolution if the government became tyrannical.

  3. #73
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,935

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Even if the government becomes a genocidal dictatorship? Perhaps you supported dictatorships throughout history?
    A genocidal dictatorship!?!?!?!?!?

    Is this the sort of fear which motivates so much of the far right? They live from day to day thinking that somehow someway they will fall through some wormhole time portal and come out on the other side of reality?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    We weren't talking about whether this has happened, but if it would be a legal order when under federal martial law.

    But hey, what do you know, found one:
    Looters are not:
    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    ...anyone out after curfew...
    I hope one day you can understand the profound difference between the two.

  5. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Guardsmen fired almost 70 rounds in less than 15 seconds.
    First of all, thank you for noting the fact that the shooting was found to be unlawful and Civil cases brought against the Guardsman resulted in an unanimous verdict awarding the victims over half a million dollars in 1970s money.

    Secondly, thank you for noting that a Gallup Poll taken immediately after the shootings showed that 58 percent of respondents blamed the students, 11 percent blamed the National Guard and 31 percent expressed no opinion.

    Thirdly, thank you for offering the proper background and context showing how this protest was part of a growing trend in the country of peaceful protests which quickly turned violent. There was a history of students all over America quickly escalating out of control and protest turning into riot. This doesn't excuse the shooting, but it does help one understand why a trained solder might fear for his life while guarding a protest. Context is everything.

    Finally, I can about match that rate of fire right now, on my own, with my privately owned semi-auto pistol. I can more than double that all by myself with my M249. Frankly, as a guardsman I'm embarrassed that a group of soldiers could fire 70 rounds and only kill 4 people. That's piss-poor marksmanship. If you want to kill 4 people then you set the selector to semi and fire 4 single aimed shots.

    Point is, that's not a big number at all, but you folks keep citing it like it's a lot. It's really not, and you sound like an infomercial saying something like "space-aged technology" when you say it.

    The shooting was not ordered, or later condoned by the Guardsman's chain of command. This was not state sponsored killing of unarmed civilians. For you to insinuate that it was, and conveniently leave out critical facts, is just silliness. Please act in a way that helps other take you seriously.
    Last edited by Jerry; 10-12-12 at 04:26 AM.

  6. #76
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    okla-freakin-homa
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,625

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Jerry-
    First thank you for pointing out how NONE of the NGs were convicted of any crime. The civil action, which included an appeal ruling awarded what the State of Ohio called the cost of going to trail, the State also issued an apology and in a written statement did admit it appears the NGs were not being threatened and the shooting never should have happened.

    Second thanks for pointing out few if any citizens at large had much information on what happened at Kent State, no CNN back in the day.

    Good of you to note this re-enforces my previous comment that if the UN-armed civilians are considered unpatriotic or malcontents by the public at large the protesters would be blamed for supposedly trained troops skipping from marching abreast to clear a campus to shooting into a crowd of UN-armed citizens.

    Good of you to point out there is a vast difference between violence and deadly confrontations and when I did time in the NG we were taught many ways to confront violent but UN-armed civilians shy of shooting willy nilly into the crowd.

    Third thanks for pointing out the students were protesting President Nixon's expanding the SE Asian war into Cambodia instead of the promised drawdown. Good as well of you to point out the Kent State campus was violence free during the multiday protests, there was rioting in the nearby town that turned violent- but not deadly, and not on the campus.

    Excellent of you to point out there are pictures of NGs and students laughing and talking prior to the unit recieved orders to clear the protesters.

    Good too to mention the NG unit was a 'protected' unit men could join to avoid going to the SE Asian games where the USofA placed second after a decade of competition.

    Good of you to point out the NGs didn't use personally owned pistols or GPMGs but M1 garands. NO MAN expended his the entire 8 round enbloc clip so many men fired and in a volley as apposed to a running fire fight. My point wasn't 70 rounds was a massive firestorm, but rather many of the NGs fired and they did it in a runny volley.

    (as an aside, if you used your pistol to fire 70 rounds in 13 seconds your hit ratio would be the same and a real feat of shooting, you must be quite the pistolero over 5 13 round mags in 13 seconds, you da man!)

    It is ASS-u-ming the NGs were marksmen with WWII/Korean vintage rifles, just as likely many didn't aim at anyone.

    You play pretty loose with 'facts'. I was a grunt back in the day. We were trained that in combat you most likely won't hear the command to fire so when everyone else fires you do too. While the NGs and state officials claim no orders were given to use deadly force, deadly force is always permitted under the 'fear for life' part of any general orders to units committed to civil unrest deployments.

    It isn't so much that no in the rear with the gear Officer did or didn't order the troops to fire but as many civilians claim, someone in green at the confrontation did.

    Also good of you to see my main point is there are circumstances where troops will fire on UN-armed civilians, instead of butt stroking those 'damn hippy' treasonous scumbags...

    From the war protests of my salad days to Katrina, soldiers will violate the Constitution, as many 'patriots' see it when it suits them.

  7. #77
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Jerry-
    First thank you for pointing out how NONE of the NGs were convicted of any crime.
    Servicemen have a degree of immunity when it comes to criminal charges. You would know that if you knew anything at all about what you're talking about.

    I'm not reading the rest of your post, you have nothing intelligent to say on this topic.

  8. #78
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    okla-freakin-homa
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    12,625

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    More tap dancing... a degree isn't blanket immunity. I know that because I was both Regular and NG. The state and Guard did alot of ass covering but in the end did admit the shooting was unwarranted.

    I trained for civil disturbance, as it was called back then, there are many steps in the force escalation between a skirmisher line and firing on UN-armed civilians.

    But wiggle all you want, the main thrust is soldiers WILL and HAVE fired on UN-armed civilians with little provocation.

    Soldiers will violate the Constitution and round-up privately and legally owned weapons.

  9. #79
    Wrinkly member
    Manc Skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Southern England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    23,227

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Eighty Americans are shot to death every day by other Americans, another 250-ish are wounded. What was the questioner thinking?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

  10. #80
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Would you shoot your fellow Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Soldiers will violate the Constitution and round-up privately and legally owned weapons.
    I'm here to tell you: No, I won't. I will refuse that order, and I won't be alone, either.

Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •