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Should Christians support Obama?

Should Christians support Obama?

  • Total voters
    39
obvious Child said:
Where did Christ say abortion was wrong? Hell, God deliberately commands the Jews to commit infanticide in the Torah.
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Christ taught the sanctity of life......ALL life. the God of the OT passed judgement on his people based on the "old Law".........Christ brought a "New Way" and a "new" doctrine.......so, your point is irrelevant, at least as it applies to "Christians"......followers during the OT were not Christians. :shrug:

And Augustine said that the soul enters the body at birth. Meaning a fetus is just a shell. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Christ would openly and deliberately discriminate against a loving couple
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So? What's Augustine to me? I am a follower of Christ, not of St. Augustine.

Christianity is a fractured religion with people having beliefs all over the board.
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i agree, but this is not how Christ intended it.
 
Das Sozialist said:
What do you consider a real Christian?
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Doesn't really matter what I consider..............you either are or are not. Giving yourself the title does not make it so. Christ's doctrines were pretty cut and dry...............you can "talk the talk".....but if you don't "walk the walk"..........you know the rest. :shrug:
 
interesting how every US president has claimed to be a God fearing Christian and yet their main skill is to start wars and slaughter civilians in nations that didnt harm or attack the USA.

I cant seem to find anything in the Gospels or the life of Christ that suggests militant and criminal behaviour is fundamental to Christian morals. In fact, I can only see things such as "turning the other cheek" or rich people not entering the kingdom of God (something about a camel and a needle)

I can only explain this by assuming that every US president has lied about being a Christian OR they havent read the Gospels.

(1.4 million dead Iraqi civilians and 350,000 dead Afgans seem to fit in with basic Christian morals and compassion)
 
FluffyNinja said:
Doesn't really matter what I consider..............you either are or are not. Giving yourself the title does not make it so. Christ's doctrines were pretty cut and dry...............you can "talk the talk".....but if you don't "walk the walk"..........you know the rest. :shrug:
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By doctrines you mean the Bible, correct?
 
minnie616 said:
This report says between just over 109,000 to just over 119,000 Iraq civilians .

Iraq Body Count
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Yes.....one source. There are hundreds of others and the numbers vary greatly from report-to-report. Try hashing through them all and come up with an accurate figure.

Oh, and btw....you may want to start another thread or go revisit one that's been long-since necroed because it could go on a while. I'm not really interested in entering a "duel of source quoting" with you tonight. :yawn:
 
FluffyNinja said:
Christ taught the sanctity of life......ALL life. the God of the OT passed judgement on his people based on the "old Law".........Christ brought a "New Way" and a "new" doctrine.......so, your point is irrelevant, at least as it applies to "Christians"......followers during the OT were not Christians. :shrug:


So? What's Augustine to me? I am a follower of Christ, not of St. Augustine.


i agree, but this is not how Christ intended it.
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Life outside the womb. God ordered abortions and Christ never said a thing against them.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Christ taught the sanctity of life......ALL life. the God of the OT passed judgement on his people based on the "old Law".........Christ brought a "New Way" and a "new" doctrine.......so, your point is irrelevant, at least as it applies to "Christians"......followers during the OT were not Christians. :shrug:
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Well, if you accept Trinity, then you should realize that Christ himself ordered the murder of fetuses. Did Christ say we can't kill and eat animals?

So? What's Augustine to me? I am a follower of Christ, not of St. Augustine.
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Except that was was written was written by a great many people many of who claimed to have written what Christ taught them. It's partially why Christianity is so fractured. Where do you put emphasis? Who is valid? What is valid? And Augustine was key early Church figure. This is fundamental when it comes to your whole "who is a Christian" deal because you yourself are making judgements as to what is canonical and what is not. Someone who places emphasis on Augustine rather than another figure will come to a different conclusion then you. Who is to say they are wrong and you are right? Hence why I mentioned the No True Scotsman fallacy. How can you really say if they are Christians or not based on some beliefs that isn't that Christ is their savior?

i agree, but this is not how Christ intended it.
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How do you know that? Maybe the Ba'hai are right, that there are many paths to God?

I don't know. But I have a problem saying that this person is and this person isn't a Christian on some belief other than Christ is their Lord and Savior. Not having that to me is pretty clear sign you aren't. But everything else is debatable. I may think someone is a bad/hypocritical Christian, but that does not make them not a Christian to me. Just like a Buddhist who enjoys a steak dinner, that doesn't invalidate them as a Buddhist. Just not a particular good one.
 
Muddy Creek said:
Definitive word in your information is CHRISTIAN. Born again evangelicals were created to pull for the republican party and make the rich richer by believing the bogus wedge issues.

BTW, did you know there is NOT anti-abortion in the Christian bible nor did Christ say anything negative about gays?
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What a crock that is. I am a Catholic and there are 78,000,000 of us in this country and the Catholic Church is ardent against Abortion and SSM.......

I guess your bible is different then mine .
 
FluffyNinja said:
Can members of the "Security Forces" really be considered non-combatants? See where the ambiguity comes in? :shrug:
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I love his link.........The NYT one of the biggest left wing rags in the world..............
 
FluffyNinja said:
Perhaps you know many people who are self-proclaimed "Christians" or who simply attend/belong to churches which are founded on "Christian doctrine?" There is quite a difference between Christians and those who've simply adopted the title for convenience or for political expediency. :shrug:
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There are many Christian chrches that support a woman's choice for an early abortion.

Here is a partial list of Cristian and Jewish religions and groups that are pro choice.

Pro-choice groups:

Liberal and some mainline denominations: In general, these either promote a woman's right to choose an abortion, or are relatively silent on the matter. A number of liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish faith groups and organizations have publicly stated that abortions are sometimes an acceptable option, and should remain legal. According to lists prepared by The Secular Web and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, they include, in alphabetic order: 1

American Baptist Churches-USA (see below),
American Ethical Union,
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee,
American Jewish Committee,
American Jewish Congress,
Central Conference of American Rabbis,
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),
Council of Jewish Federations,
Episcopal Church (USA),
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
Na'Amat USA,
National Council of Jewish Women,
Presbyterian Church (USA),
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Union of American Hebrew Congregations,
Unitarian Universalist Association,
United Church of Christ,
United Methodist Church,
United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism.

Religious groups other than denominations:

Catholics for Free Choice,
Episcopal Women's Caucus,
Evangelicals for Choice,
Jewish Women International,
Lutheran Women's Caucus,
North American Federation of Temple Youth,
Unitarian Universalist Women's Federation,
Women of Reform Judaism,
Women's American ORT,
Women's Caucus Church of the Brethren,
Women's League for Conservative Judaism
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Current abortion beliefs of religious groups
 
Navy Pride said:
I love his link.........The NYT one of the biggest left wing rags in the world..............
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The info was an AP report with numbers from the Pentagon. If you disagree with the numbers than take it up with the Pentagon.

, The Associated Press reported that the Pentagon in July had quietly posted its fullest tally of the death toll of Iraqi civilians and security forces ever,
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Navy Pride said:
What a crock that is. I am a Catholic and there are 78,000,000 of us in this country and the Catholic Church is ardent against Abortion and SSM.......

I guess your bible is different then mine .
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I said God was for abortions and Jesus was never against them. How that equates to Catholic religious dogma is irrelevant. Christians follow the teachings of Christ.
 
obvious Child said:
Well, if you accept Trinity, then you should realize that Christ himself ordered the murder of fetuses. Did Christ say we can't kill and eat animals?
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I do accept the trinity; but if you understand the nature of Christ, you also know that Christ brought a "new law" and a "new gospel."



Except that was was written was written by a great many people many of who claimed to have written what Christ taught them. It's partially why Christianity is so fractured. Where do you put emphasis? Who is valid? What is valid? And Augustine was key early Church figure. This is fundamental when it comes to your whole "who is a Christian" deal because you yourself are making judgements as to what is canonical and what is not. Someone who places emphasis on Augustine rather than another figure will come to a different conclusion then you. Who is to say they are wrong and you are right? Hence why I mentioned the No True Scotsman fallacy. How can you really say if they are Christians or not based on some beliefs that isn't that Christ is their savior?
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My emphasis on the "Church figure"........which is why I rarely subscribe strictly to "church doctrine"............ only to Christ's doctrine. If Christ were to return today, I doubt very seriously that there is ANY "Christian" church to which he'd claim membership. :shrug:

How do you know that? Maybe the Ba'hai are right, that there are many paths to God?
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I think this may belong in another forum......let's not get too far away from the OP here. :lol:

I may think someone is a bad/hypocritical Christian, but that does not make them not a Christian to me. .
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Christ, himself, would probably disagree here. Whether or not YOU consider them Christians is of no significance. Generally speaking, (and from strictly a NT perspective) Christ never appeard to be too fond of hypocricy among his "followers." :shrug:
 
minnie616 said:
There are many Christian chrches that support a woman's choice for an early abortion.

Here is a partial list of Cristian and Jewish religions and groups that are pro choice.



Current abortion beliefs of religious groups
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99.9999999........% of "churches" are nothing more than human constructs. There is only ONE church that was founded by Christ himself. True Christianity and "christian" churches are more often than not, at odds regarding how Christians should behave.
 
minnie616 said:
The info was an AP report with numbers from the Pentagon. If you disagree with the numbers than take it up with the Pentagon.
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Ever wonder just exactly who the mysterious "AP" consists of? :lol:
 
FluffyNinja said:
99.9999999........% of "churches" are nothing more than human constructs. There is only ONE church that was founded by Christ himself. True Christianity and "christian" churches are more often than not, at odds regarding how Christians should behave.
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The list I posted was not individual churches. They were liberal and mainline denominations.

The denomination I belong to is on the list and it is a TRUE Christian Church.
 
Muddy Creek said:
I said God was for abortions and Jesus was never against them. How that equates to Catholic religious dogma is irrelevant. Christians follow the teachings of Christ.
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So do Catholics my left wing friend.........If you knew anything about Christianity you would know that God is made up of a holy trinity...........Yje father, son, and Holy Spirut.
 
minnie616 said:
The list I posted was not individual churches. They were liberal and mainline denominations.

The denomination I belong to is on the list and it is a TRUE Christian Church.
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any church that believes in murdering innocent, defenseless babies in the womb is no Christian Church..I don't care what they call themselves.
 
Navy Pride said:
What a crock that is. I am a Catholic and there are 78,000,000 of us in this country and the Catholic Church is ardent against Abortion and SSM.......

I guess your bible is different then mine .
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They are also ardently against Capital Punishment. Is your bible different from mine? Or are you just a Cafeteria Catholic?
 
Navy Pride said:
So do Catholics my left wing friend.........If you knew anything about Christianity you would know that God is made up of a holy trinity...........Yje father, son, and Holy Spirut.
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I was Christian and notice you failed to understand that god is for abortion and Christ never spoke out against it.
 
Navy Pride said:
any church that believes in murdering innocent, defenseless babies in the womb is no Christian Church..I don't care what they call themselves.
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Sure they are...and in the womb they are parasites, living off the mother and are referred to medically as zygotes, embryos and fetuses. I suppose you're referring to the republican policy of stopping medical insurance for poor children, cutting back on foodstamps for poor children and sending jobs overseas.
 
minnie616 said:
Ever wonder where the Pentagon got the numbers they gave the AP?
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The Associated Press, my dear, consists of nearly 4,000 independent journalists in over 300 different locations. Their system of journalistic "oversight" is not always the greatest and the AP certainly has not risen very far above the ranks of the politically biased :shrug:
 
Navy Pride said:
any church that believes in murdering innocent, defenseless babies in the womb is no Christian Church..I don't care what they call themselves.
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My chrch does not believe in killing babies.
We belive life does not begin at conception. WE believe the fetus does recive a soul until later in delvelopement.


Overview:
A diversity of views exists within the U.S. and Canada concerning abortion access.
Many pro-life and pro-choice groups have been organized with opposing goals.

Surprisingly, they agree on a few very important points:

They both want to see the abortion rate decline.
In those cases where they feel that an abortion is acceptable, they are both concerned that it present a minimal health risk to the woman.
Once human personhood is attained by the embryo or fetus, both pro-life and pro-choice supporters are concerned that his/her life be preserved, except in very unusual circumstances.


Unfortunately, the two sides cannot agree on when personhood is attained.

Most pro-life groups believe it happens at conception and are thus generally opposed to all elective abortions.

Pro-choice groups typically believe that it happens later in gestation or at birth, and are thus generally supportive of a woman's access to affordable, safe, elective abortions.
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Current abortion beliefs of religious groups
 
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