• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
Blind faith? Lol. No my man. Blind faith is saying that God will protect you if you jump off a building. Science is telling you that when you hit the floor, the force of gravity will make sure you don't survive without broken bones as a minimum. Quit putting the two on the same standard. Still think science is blind faith? Jump off a building. See which one is more likely to happen. Broken bones or God saving you.

Prove to me that there is nowhere else in the entire universe where the angle of incidence does not equal the angle of refraction and we can talk. I mean if science were so exact, why do so many scientists fight with each other? It is just a form of faith--faith in a methodology.
 
Science is the process of ascertaining what reality is. You may not accept some scientific theories -- for example, I reject all the evidence that second-hand smoke causes lung cancer, as I do not believe the method used to reach the conclusion was sound.

However, if you have beliefs, for religious or other purposes, that you cannot die in a fire because you have on "magic underwear", or that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs, you have no right -- in your capacity as my neighbor, representative or fellow voter -- to impose such nonsense on me. You cannot call such beliefs "science", and I should not be buying textbooks for schoolchildren via my tax dollars that teach such silliness. If you believe your gay child is possessed by the devil, that's sad. But if you try and torture that child to "convert" him or "cleanse" him, I'll be sending the cops along to arrest you for child abuse.

There is a difference between thinking abortion is wrong and thinking abortion does not exist, or is killing off a race of aliens.

So, my fundamentalist fellow Americans: feel free to embrace your fairy tales...but do not ask me to pay for them.

What say you?

So long as real colleges admit people based, at least partially, on learning actual science in science, I am not too concerned.

The accreditation bodies are thus where my real concerns are.

I doubt many only high school educated people will be in a position where their lack of scientific education will matter. If they want to deceive themselves, at least they won't hurt anyone else.
 
Your last sentence is untrue. Curiosity is the hallmark of science it is how theories and ideas are made. We do not work on an assembly line. Flexibility is a vague term. If you are saying thinking outside the box, I must also disagree with you there. A scientist who practices good science MUST be able to be flexible. If his idea or experiment does not work he must be flexible enough to discard it and flexible enough to think of a new way to deal with it. If you are talking about flexibility within the scientific method or ethic then I will say that yes there is no flexibility here because these concepts are necessary for doing good science

Wolfman you will notice I took pains to differintiate scientists of whom not all of them are inflexible and dogmatic and I would venture to say a majority of scientists that are true to the scientific method. I said that a large part of them were not. Flexibility with method or ethic was in no way what I was describing, but rather flexibility in stretching the mind, and inate curiosity to explore new avenues of thought. I am quite fortunate to work with people in a field that are truly passionate about their science and engineering and vigously ridgid and even ruthless in their application of the Method. That said I notice in some fields this ruthless rigor is not so strenuously applied. Climate scientists being the group that stands out. Their rigor in method application is suspect. I am not saying all of them, but definately I would say a more than a few.
 
Prove to me that there is nowhere else in the entire universe where the angle of incidence does not equal the angle of refraction and we can talk. I mean if science were so exact, why do so many scientists fight with each other? It is just a form of faith--faith in a methodology.

It's confidence in scientific methodology and evidence, whereas religion lacks both by definition. The two are different. You can play semantics all you want, but this just isn't a valid comparison. The religious need to stop seeing science as a threat. Sometimes science disproves your idea of the world, of history, or of reality. When that happens, you should consider the possibility that you were wrong.

I think people short-circuit the logic. Bible is Word of God -> God is Infallible -> Bible is infallible. Problem is, you are not perfect. You think the Earth is 6000 years old because the bible says so? Ok. Show me where it gives a date for creation. It doesn't. Humans came up with that number based on interpretation of the words in the book. Words that were first written down thousands of years ago. Copied, recopied, over and over, translated and retranslated through several languages. Each time humans involved.

Worse, the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old implies a deity who is a jackass. There is overwhelming scientific evidence proving the Earth is older than that. If God really created the Earth 6000 years ago, he created it in a manner so as to deliberately deceive us into thinking it was older. One example out of very, very many: We observe stars that are more than 6000 light-years away. If the universe were younger, that light would not be observable yet unless God either altered the speed of light dramatically mid-universe or he created light already in-transit knowing full well what we'd think when it hit the telescopes. What's more likely? That God created a universe designed into deceiving you away from his own holy book, or that maybe somewhere along the lines a human misunderstood something?
 
There's a difference between what is legal and what is right.

I'm not going to get into the concept of rights here.

I agree, these whackadoodles can run for office and if elected, tard up my government. I should know,as Dennis Kucinich is my congresscritter, and he thinks he met Cleopatra in a past life and is ET.

I'd rather have
Kucinich then someone who thinks the world is 6,000 years old.

Still, I don't see how we can get around this as the problem lies not actually in who we elect, but who is doing the electing. I share you frustration, but I don't see how to solve this.
 
Science is the process of ascertaining what reality is.

Too vague a definition

Science is actually a methodology, a technique or craft that allows for the verification or validation of theory with experimental evidence and observational data.

A good example of a theory not attaning a scientific status is String THeory which does not have any evidence to support its predictions or conclusions yet. String Theory is in its present form, a Mathematical Philosophy, not a science.

Many people also categorise Mathematics as a science, which it isnt. Mathematics is very abstract and more of a Philosophy based upon logic and axioms.

So when you say Science seeks to ascertain what reality is, it must be noted that there are many human endevours that claim to be seeking or describing reality. An example would be Priests or Fortune tellers, or spiritual guides - they claim the same thing
 
They do. But YEC specifically comes into conflict with measurement, which at that point it's reality (measurement) or fantasy (YEC). There can be a lot of YEC believers out there, it's just that none of that should find its way into law.

YEC comes it conflict with reality.

Oil for instance. Oil explorations at sea tend to focus on areas where large concentrations of diatoms existed in evolutionary periods. Oil firms will consult the evolutionary time frame and geological column and start looking in areas predicted to previously be home to diatoms. As diatoms turned into hydrocarbons over time with pressure and heat, modern oil exploration is somewhat dependent upon evolution. If the world is only 6,000 years old, this method should never find oil as there simply wasn't time for diatoms of various types to evolve and eventually turn into hydrocarbons,.

Young Earth Creationists lie to themselves every second of every day they live in the modern world.
 
Science is the Ultimate fundamendalist fanatical religious cult
 
I don't want to get into a massive spiritual/religious debate on this. I could have said "The other side of the Veil" or something like that, if you'd have prefered.



I'm not asking anyone to pay for my faith. Hell, I don't even belong to an organized religious group, so I can't even say some clergyman who represents me is getting government support through tax exemptions or anything. I don't believe in teaching Creationism, my views on how the world came to be, or anything of the sort in public schools either. All I would like to see is the scientific community admit that they don't have an answer for everything and that they still DON'T KNOW quite a bit about almost everything. Until they are willing to do that, and to accept that not everyone is going to bow down before the altar of Science; I will not send any child of mine to a public school. I'm not asking you (or anyone else) to support my viewpoint financially. I'm just asking you not to stick your nose into what I would teach my own children, on my own time, in my own home.

Scientists freely admit that they don't know everything.

What they deny is that anything but more science will answer the questions that remain.
 
You mad Tigger?
That just sounds so petty,bitter and jealous on your part.
One would think you are wishing harm and punishment on me and my family just because I took whatever opportunities that came my way,ran with it,and reaped the rewards and benefits because of it,and you didn't.

Neither of us really KNOWS what's in store for either of us on the OTHERSIDE.
But until that time comes,I'm going to continue to jump on any opportunity to make my businesses even greater successes.
But until that time comes,I am going to take every opportunity that comes my way to give me,my wife,my progeny and my descendents every advantage to make our lives better.
But until that time comes,I am going to do my best to overcome any obstacle that comes my,my wife,my progeny and my descendents way.

But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the fruits of my labors.
But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the love of my beautiful wife,my daughters,and my grandchildren.

Because I know that even if my business tank tomorrow,if my big fat bank account were to suddenly go "poof",if my big house and fancy car are taken away,I'll still be a very wealthy man because I know my wife,children and my grandchildren will still love and respect me.

Both me and Lena both started out with nothing,and in the end,we'll leave with nothing.
But in the meantime we Verthaines are a strong and hardy bunch ,and we'll survive one way or another,as we always have.
As a family.

There is no "other side".

Dead is dead.

IMO.
 
And I'm in Chicago, where students have equally similar problems. But those problems do not reduce the importance of religion classes.

It's funny that you ask me why I think religion classes are necessary and then when I give you my answer, rather than actually addressing the points I made, you just dismiss them with a red herring, "oh, some kids can't read." Give me a break. Don't ask questions and waste my time if you aren't even going to bother to give a serious answer.

I see only one potential gain in a HS required course on Comparative Religion: a reduction in ignorance and fear.

I see a whole raft of problems with such a course: complaints from parents amd the community about how their faith is presented; attempts by students, teachers, parents or the community to co-opt the course so as to proselytize; students of minority faiths feeling bullied; parents like me who believe that teaching values is not a proper function of public schools; etc., etc., etc.

IMO, a required HS course of this sort is just not a good idea.
 
Scientists freely admit that they don't know everything.

They don't do a very good job of teaching that in most of the schools.

What they deny is that anything but more science will answer the questions that remain.

That is where I will have to part company with them.
 
Well then, what are the "issues" that you have to "pick a bone with a higher power".

They mainly have to do with what happened to my Father more than myself. I've come to terms with being the world's "court jester", but what happened to my Father was unacceptable from any form of deity. I'm going to just leave it at that.

And yet you still have a 'bone to pick" with the higher powers while I don't. I know nothing about what goes on the "Otherside" and there seems to be no "universal" agreement on that,or even if there is an "Otherside".Whenever an opportunity comes my way,all I have to go on is my instincts as to how it can benefit me,my family,and my employees and minimize any harm it may comes to others. I never worry about how it effects the Afterlife. That will happen if and when it happens.

At that point it's too late to worry about it. Obviously we all have our own views of how this life connects to an Afterlife, if any. I'm not here to change your mind on any of it. I just think you're being a little naive about things; but that's your right.

Of course you are free to believe that. Me, I tie that rope to a grappling hook and climb higher,rather than use it to hang myself.

Most of the time, that's not an option.

That of course is your decision and choice.

No. That is the result of things that were and are still way beyond my control.
 
Because....................?

Because I prefer my "mythology" to theirs.

As I mentioned earlier, my youngest brother and his wife both have PhD's in genetic microbiology from Columbia University. They were both raised in religious homes and have chosen a new religion as adults.... Science. I have sat down and had some rather interesting discussions with them, and with others who share that mentality over time. I find it to be completely and totally hollow. As hollow as they find my beliefs to be.
 
Because I prefer my "mythology" to theirs.

As I mentioned earlier, my youngest brother and his wife both have PhD's in genetic microbiology from Columbia University. They were both raised in religious homes and have chosen a new religion as adults.... Science. I have sat down and had some rather interesting discussions with them, and with others who share that mentality over time. I find it to be completely and totally hollow. As hollow as they find my beliefs to be.

Well, I can appreciate your sorrow at your brother's loss of his childhood faith, and it is true, few scientists are religious. However, I think you indict science for something it isn't responsible for -- each individual has a duty to manage his own inner life, Tigger.

As for "replacing science", nope, not an option.
 
It's hard to even begin a reasonable discussion when a person who touts man made global warming refers to God as "your imaginary friend". Noone specific, but that's the general gist of it.
 
Well, I can appreciate your sorrow at your brother's loss of his childhood faith, and it is true, few scientists are religious. However, I think you indict science for something it isn't responsible for -- each individual has a duty to manage his own inner life, Tigger.

It's not a matter of losing the childhood faith. If that were the issue, I'd be as guilty as they are, since I no longer associate myself with any organized religion. Not only do I find scientists to be non-religious, I find most of them to be non-spiritual as well. They exist in a world where if it cannot be measured, calculated, or seen through a microscope it cannot exist. I find that to be a terribly hollow way to go through life.

As for "replacing science", nope, not an option.

It is for some of us.
 
It's not a matter of losing the childhood faith. If that were the issue, I'd be as guilty as they are, since I no longer associate myself with any organized religion. Not only do I find scientists to be non-religious, I find most of them to be non-spiritual as well. They exist in a world where if it cannot be measured, calculated, or seen through a microscope it cannot exist. I find that to be a terribly hollow way to go through life.

You are correct; atheism is probably at its highest among American scientists, as compared to Americans generally.


It is for some of us.

Will your faith lead you to a cure for cancer? Alternative energy source? Map of the Universe?
 
You are correct; atheism is probably at its highest among American scientists, as compared to Americans generally.

It is definitely at a very high rate, which I find to be somewhat disturbing.

Will your faith lead you to a cure for cancer? Alternative energy source? Map of the Universe?

My faith does not concern itself with such things. My cure for cancer would/will be .45ACP up under the chin with a rearward cant of the muzzle. I won't live long enough to have to worry about alternative energy sources, and any Map of the Universe will require many more years than I have left to even be seriously started.

Maybe three or four lifetimes from now it'll be an issue, but it won't be for quite a while.
 
It is definitely at a very high rate, which I find to be somewhat disturbing.



My faith does not concern itself with such things. My cure for cancer would/will be .45ACP up under the chin with a rearward cant of the muzzle. I won't live long enough to have to worry about alternative energy sources, and any Map of the Universe will require many more years than I have left to even be seriously started.

Maybe three or four lifetimes from now it'll be an issue, but it won't be for quite a while.

Hopefully not.

Either way, when the cure is discovered, a scientist will do the discovering and will have done so by employing the scientific method.
 
Hopefully not. Either way, when the cure is discovered, a scientist will do the discovering and will have done so by employing the scientific method.

Good for him/her. Not that it really makes any difference to me. Even if they were to discover a cure tomorrow, it would have no impact on me personally.
 
Good for him/her. Not that it really makes any difference to me. Even if they were to discover a cure tomorrow, it would have no impact on me personally.

Why not?

You assume that cure will involve some dread treatment, like chemotherapy?
 
Back
Top Bottom