View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

Voters
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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #21
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Good point. "Science" isn't always right, and scientists are just as subject to financial, social and political pressures as anyone else .... "publish or perish" is their motto, and attempting to publish theories that contract the popular scientific dogma of the moment is rarely smiled upon.
    True, but beliefs that are obviously bat**** shouldn't be pushed around as science. Young Earth Creationism for one. We have TWO count them, TWO YECs on the House Science Committee. That is insane.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How do you gel this legislators in Congress who openly claim that the Earth is 6,000~9,000 years old and evolution does not happen at all? After all, they were elected to make laws and it is our Democracy that gives our legislators to enact laws regarding the country. Therefore, despite the fact that I agree with you that they are entirely bat **** crazy, they still have the right as given by COTUS to impose such nonsense upon us. Ultimately the problem lies with those electing these people, but that again is their privilege. I don't see how you can stop this (at least quickly) without serious perverting the Constitution.
    There's a difference between what is legal and what is right.

    I agree, these whackadoodles can run for office and if elected, tard up my government. I should know,as Dennis Kucinich is my congresscritter, and he thinks he met Cleopatra in a past life and is ET.

  3. #23
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    As to the OP title - that applies to you as well (even if you have the majority behind you).

    There is a difference between belief and action. This is why I absolutely am against hate crime legislation. We don't make laws against thought, but rather against certain actions.

    As to the textbooks, again, apply that equally to yourself. Must the rest of us buy textbooks for your kids that teach them these beliefs are "science"?

    As to elected representatives, they have the same right you do to denounce what someone else calls a scientific breakthrough for whatever reasons they wish. Remember, treatments for [female] hysteria were all the rage in scientific breakthroughs some decades ago. Should we all have bought into those? How about using mercury in vaccines, huge scientific breakthrough in storage and efficacy?
    There is no "science". There is only science. It is the same for us all, and while you and I might reject any number of theories as unproven or unsound, you have no right (constitutionally) IMO, to force me to buy textbooks for your kids that say only gay people get AIDS, or that humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth together.

    You do not get to pretend that a religious parable is in competition for the truth with an accepted, scientific fact.

    Hate crime legislation is an entirely different topic. An very interesting one, but different.


  4. #24
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Good point. "Science" isn't always right, and scientists are just as subject to financial, social and political pressures as anyone else .... "publish or perish" is their motto, and attempting to publish theories that contract the popular scientific dogma of the moment is rarely smiled upon.
    There is absolutely junk science. There are also mistakes -- science does not move forward in an uninterrupted linear fashion.

    I grant you we all have a right -- even a duty -- to reject or question junk science. And we can look at any new scientific finding with suspicion. For example, I wouldn't bless the Keystone Pipeline if Father Time wrote the feasibility study.

    That's very different from rejecting evolution or modern medical care for your children.

  5. #25
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    First I thought the poll was limited. Next science is not a freedom within the confines of law. It is a search for truth using time honored and tested methods and a rigorous process of proofs. The various disciplines have thier own rigours but share the same methodology. they each have their own vocabulary and terminology.
    Unfortunately for centuries the process has been misunderstood by the general public. Observation, reproducability and severe testing are the hallmarks of good science as is objectivity.
    There can be no connection between religion or politics in true science. If a theory does not prove out it must be discarded without reservation. And if a theory does prove out it must be able to withstand close inspection and be reproduced several times before it gains any measure of acceptance within the Scientific community. Any person who cannot accept this and continues on is practicimg bad science and sooner or later will be found out.
    IMHO the reason so many people have trouble with scientific ideas is that the mental process that we must go through and the language of science is so foriegn most people reject it out of hand or fear it.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    True, dat, wolfman. Look at all the people who won't bless euthanasia or who won't agree to donate their organs on their driver's license, because their limited understanding and distrust of science makes them think they're being set up to be murdered.

  7. #27
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    First I thought the poll was limited. Next science is not a freedom within the confines of law. It is a search for truth using time honored and tested methods and a rigorous process of proofs. The various disciplines have thier own rigours but share the same methodology. they each have their own vocabulary and terminology.
    Unfortunately for centuries the process has been misunderstood by the general public. Observation, reproducability and severe testing are the hallmarks of good science as is objectivity.
    There can be no connection between religion or politics in true science. If a theory does not prove out it must be discarded without reservation. And if a theory does prove out it must be able to withstand close inspection and be reproduced several times before it gains any measure of acceptance within the Scientific community. Any person who cannot accept this and continues on is practicimg bad science and sooner or later will be found out.
    IMHO the reason so many people have trouble with scientific ideas is that the mental process that we must go through and the language of science is so foriegn most people reject it out of hand or fear it.
    Excellent summation. I'd like to add a couple points though. One of the reasons I see folks reject many scientific conclusions is down to reproducability. So many scientific conclusions are not reproducible by lay people (they do not have the tools, equipment or learning to do so). Also, again, many times, the scientific conclusion is at direct odds with the individual's life experience.

    However, you leave out a very important factor, which Goshin mentioned - scientists are human just like everyone else. They fudge numbers, seek advancement in their fields (sometimes to the exclusion of accuracy), cheat, deceive and downright just get it wrong. The tools of scientific inquiry are sound, the problem is the nut behind the wheel.

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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    So, my fundamentalist fellow Americans: feel free to embrace your fairy tales...but do not ask me to pay for them.
    That's fine. Just please don't come to me and complain that you need more or my tax money for your school system when I homeschool my kids. Also, don't demand that my children pass some stupid state graduation exam to be considered to have graduated from high school.

    If I can't demand you teach Evolution as a THEORY in a science classroom, I don't want you demanding that I teach Sherman's March to the Sea as anything other than a War Crime perpetrated by General Sherman and Abraham Lincoln.

  9. #29
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    That's fine. Just please don't come to me and complain that you need more or my tax money for your school system when I homeschool my kids. Also, don't demand that my children pass some stupid state graduation exam to be considered to have graduated from high school.

    If I can't demand you teach Evolution as a THEORY in a science classroom, I don't want you demanding that I teach Sherman's March to the Sea as anything other than a War Crime perpetrated by General Sherman and Abraham Lincoln.
    Ya, history presents its own challenges -- some Louisiana voucher schools spent taxpayer money to buy history books that teach "slave owners were kind".

    However, history, while fact-based, is not science.

    As for your complaints about evolution in science textbooks, you cannot opt out of paying property taxes anymore than you can opt out of paying income taxes, Tigger.

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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Excellent summation. I'd like to add a couple points though. One of the reasons I see folks reject many scientific conclusions is down to reproducability. So many scientific conclusions are not reproducible by lay people (they do not have the tools, equipment or learning to do so). Also, again, many times, the scientific conclusion is at direct odds with the individual's life experience.

    However, you leave out a very important factor, which Goshin mentioned - scientists are human just like everyone else. They fudge numbers, seek advancement in their fields (sometimes to the exclusion of accuracy), cheat, deceive and downright just get it wrong. The tools of scientific inquiry are sound, the problem is the nut behind the wheel.
    Again, I have no quarrel with anyone who is skeptical about a new scientific theory. I am impatient with people who still want to debate whether evolution or global warming are real, but they can believe whatever they like -- as long as my tax dollars are not going into funding these mistakes in thinking.

    I do not want to give out taxpayer dollars as grants to look for the Holy Grail, etc.

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