View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #181
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Prove to me that there is nowhere else in the entire universe where the angle of incidence does not equal the angle of refraction and we can talk. I mean if science were so exact, why do so many scientists fight with each other? It is just a form of faith--faith in a methodology.
    It's confidence in scientific methodology and evidence, whereas religion lacks both by definition. The two are different. You can play semantics all you want, but this just isn't a valid comparison. The religious need to stop seeing science as a threat. Sometimes science disproves your idea of the world, of history, or of reality. When that happens, you should consider the possibility that you were wrong.

    I think people short-circuit the logic. Bible is Word of God -> God is Infallible -> Bible is infallible. Problem is, you are not perfect. You think the Earth is 6000 years old because the bible says so? Ok. Show me where it gives a date for creation. It doesn't. Humans came up with that number based on interpretation of the words in the book. Words that were first written down thousands of years ago. Copied, recopied, over and over, translated and retranslated through several languages. Each time humans involved.

    Worse, the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old implies a deity who is a jackass. There is overwhelming scientific evidence proving the Earth is older than that. If God really created the Earth 6000 years ago, he created it in a manner so as to deliberately deceive us into thinking it was older. One example out of very, very many: We observe stars that are more than 6000 light-years away. If the universe were younger, that light would not be observable yet unless God either altered the speed of light dramatically mid-universe or he created light already in-transit knowing full well what we'd think when it hit the telescopes. What's more likely? That God created a universe designed into deceiving you away from his own holy book, or that maybe somewhere along the lines a human misunderstood something?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  2. #182
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    There's a difference between what is legal and what is right.
    I'm not going to get into the concept of rights here.

    I agree, these whackadoodles can run for office and if elected, tard up my government. I should know,as Dennis Kucinich is my congresscritter, and he thinks he met Cleopatra in a past life and is ET.
    I'd rather have
    Kucinich then someone who thinks the world is 6,000 years old.

    Still, I don't see how we can get around this as the problem lies not actually in who we elect, but who is doing the electing. I share you frustration, but I don't see how to solve this.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #183
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Science is the process of ascertaining what reality is.
    Too vague a definition

    Science is actually a methodology, a technique or craft that allows for the verification or validation of theory with experimental evidence and observational data.

    A good example of a theory not attaning a scientific status is String THeory which does not have any evidence to support its predictions or conclusions yet. String Theory is in its present form, a Mathematical Philosophy, not a science.

    Many people also categorise Mathematics as a science, which it isnt. Mathematics is very abstract and more of a Philosophy based upon logic and axioms.

    So when you say Science seeks to ascertain what reality is, it must be noted that there are many human endevours that claim to be seeking or describing reality. An example would be Priests or Fortune tellers, or spiritual guides - they claim the same thing

  4. #184
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They do. But YEC specifically comes into conflict with measurement, which at that point it's reality (measurement) or fantasy (YEC). There can be a lot of YEC believers out there, it's just that none of that should find its way into law.
    YEC comes it conflict with reality.

    Oil for instance. Oil explorations at sea tend to focus on areas where large concentrations of diatoms existed in evolutionary periods. Oil firms will consult the evolutionary time frame and geological column and start looking in areas predicted to previously be home to diatoms. As diatoms turned into hydrocarbons over time with pressure and heat, modern oil exploration is somewhat dependent upon evolution. If the world is only 6,000 years old, this method should never find oil as there simply wasn't time for diatoms of various types to evolve and eventually turn into hydrocarbons,.

    Young Earth Creationists lie to themselves every second of every day they live in the modern world.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  5. #185
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Science is the Ultimate fundamendalist fanatical religious cult

  6. #186
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I don't want to get into a massive spiritual/religious debate on this. I could have said "The other side of the Veil" or something like that, if you'd have prefered.



    I'm not asking anyone to pay for my faith. Hell, I don't even belong to an organized religious group, so I can't even say some clergyman who represents me is getting government support through tax exemptions or anything. I don't believe in teaching Creationism, my views on how the world came to be, or anything of the sort in public schools either. All I would like to see is the scientific community admit that they don't have an answer for everything and that they still DON'T KNOW quite a bit about almost everything. Until they are willing to do that, and to accept that not everyone is going to bow down before the altar of Science; I will not send any child of mine to a public school. I'm not asking you (or anyone else) to support my viewpoint financially. I'm just asking you not to stick your nose into what I would teach my own children, on my own time, in my own home.
    Scientists freely admit that they don't know everything.

    What they deny is that anything but more science will answer the questions that remain.

  7. #187
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    You mad Tigger?
    That just sounds so petty,bitter and jealous on your part.
    One would think you are wishing harm and punishment on me and my family just because I took whatever opportunities that came my way,ran with it,and reaped the rewards and benefits because of it,and you didn't.

    Neither of us really KNOWS what's in store for either of us on the OTHERSIDE.
    But until that time comes,I'm going to continue to jump on any opportunity to make my businesses even greater successes.
    But until that time comes,I am going to take every opportunity that comes my way to give me,my wife,my progeny and my descendents every advantage to make our lives better.
    But until that time comes,I am going to do my best to overcome any obstacle that comes my,my wife,my progeny and my descendents way.

    But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the fruits of my labors.
    But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the love of my beautiful wife,my daughters,and my grandchildren.

    Because I know that even if my business tank tomorrow,if my big fat bank account were to suddenly go "poof",if my big house and fancy car are taken away,I'll still be a very wealthy man because I know my wife,children and my grandchildren will still love and respect me.

    Both me and Lena both started out with nothing,and in the end,we'll leave with nothing.
    But in the meantime we Verthaines are a strong and hardy bunch ,and we'll survive one way or another,as we always have.
    As a family.
    There is no "other side".

    Dead is dead.

    IMO.

  8. #188
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    And I'm in Chicago, where students have equally similar problems. But those problems do not reduce the importance of religion classes.

    It's funny that you ask me why I think religion classes are necessary and then when I give you my answer, rather than actually addressing the points I made, you just dismiss them with a red herring, "oh, some kids can't read." Give me a break. Don't ask questions and waste my time if you aren't even going to bother to give a serious answer.
    I see only one potential gain in a HS required course on Comparative Religion: a reduction in ignorance and fear.

    I see a whole raft of problems with such a course: complaints from parents amd the community about how their faith is presented; attempts by students, teachers, parents or the community to co-opt the course so as to proselytize; students of minority faiths feeling bullied; parents like me who believe that teaching values is not a proper function of public schools; etc., etc., etc.

    IMO, a required HS course of this sort is just not a good idea.

  9. #189
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Scientists freely admit that they don't know everything.
    They don't do a very good job of teaching that in most of the schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    What they deny is that anything but more science will answer the questions that remain.
    That is where I will have to part company with them.

  10. #190
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    Well then, what are the "issues" that you have to "pick a bone with a higher power".
    They mainly have to do with what happened to my Father more than myself. I've come to terms with being the world's "court jester", but what happened to my Father was unacceptable from any form of deity. I'm going to just leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    And yet you still have a 'bone to pick" with the higher powers while I don't. I know nothing about what goes on the "Otherside" and there seems to be no "universal" agreement on that,or even if there is an "Otherside".Whenever an opportunity comes my way,all I have to go on is my instincts as to how it can benefit me,my family,and my employees and minimize any harm it may comes to others. I never worry about how it effects the Afterlife. That will happen if and when it happens.
    At that point it's too late to worry about it. Obviously we all have our own views of how this life connects to an Afterlife, if any. I'm not here to change your mind on any of it. I just think you're being a little naive about things; but that's your right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    Of course you are free to believe that. Me, I tie that rope to a grappling hook and climb higher,rather than use it to hang myself.
    Most of the time, that's not an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    That of course is your decision and choice.
    No. That is the result of things that were and are still way beyond my control.

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