View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #171
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So you are saying that you believe that standardization is preferable, and you would like to impose this belief on others?
    My post has nothing to do with beliefs if you read what i said. I was talking about STANDARDIZING CORE SUBJECTS. How many math classes, science classes, lit classes. I will ask you a similar question are you saying I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter?

    What I am talking about is making sure that the basic courses taught in virginia are the same as in Alaska for the EXACT reasons I stated. NONE other. If you were more aware of the chaos that was out there you would not have asked such a foolish question.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  2. #172
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As I've already said... there are scientific things that are self-evident, like the existence of gravity.

    OTOH, there are scientific things that are subject to debate, such as exactly what gravity/inertia IS (curved spacetime, gravitons, field effects, theories differ), or whether global warming is anthropogenic and constitutes a disaster, or whether evolution actually disproves the possibility of a Creator.
    When I was in college a Theology Student from Madison and I got into a conversation and he said that in his opinion Science was mans attempt to prove the existence of God by rationale means. I have never heard a better explanation as a person of faith.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  3. #173
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is what most people don't seem to get. Nobody today looks at Darwin's work to validate their theories regarding the evolution of birds. Darwin's book, was obsolete in its own field by the time the 20th century rolled along. 100 years later? It no longer mattered as anything more than a historical understanding of how modern scientists arrived at their understanding of evolution.

    The conservative/religious mind doesn't understand this fact for the simple reason that they do not believe in progress. The bible, regardless of all of its mistakes, contradictions and fallacies is still "true" to them to some degree. To the extremist, it's literal, to the moderate, it's allegorical, to the wish-washy, it's god's work as understood by men. However, they all retain that the tenets laid out by it are true. Science does not work in this way. It adapts to changes in methodology. Which religion has none so to speak.
    Here's a thought to entertain. Lets say you are an "educated" person living 5000 years ago and most of the people around you were ignorant nomadic tribesman who thought God was in the lightening and a comet meant disaster. How would you explain how the world or for that matter the universe was created so that they would understand? GENESIS.
    Thats another thing the religious right does not understand they cannot put themselves in the context of when this stuff was written they think it was yesterday.

    By the way. Did you notice my refence to the Anglican Deacon. Darwin as a deacon of his local church just like his uncle Erasmus who was also a naturalist. So much for atheist science.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  4. #174
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    My post has nothing to do with beliefs if you read what i said. I was talking about STANDARDIZING CORE SUBJECTS. How many math classes, science classes, lit classes. I will ask you a similar question are you saying I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter?
    Of course you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs. Everyone is.

    What I am talking about is making sure that the basic courses taught in virginia are the same as in Alaska for the EXACT reasons I stated. NONE other. If you were more aware of the chaos that was out there you would not have asked such a foolish question.
    You believe that it is important to standardize courses across the country, and it appears you wish to impose this belief on others.

  5. #175
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Of course you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs. Everyone is.



    You believe that it is important to standardize courses across the country, and it appears you wish to impose this belief on others.
    Yes of course I do.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

  6. #176
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Blind faith? Lol. No my man. Blind faith is saying that God will protect you if you jump off a building. Science is telling you that when you hit the floor, the force of gravity will make sure you don't survive without broken bones as a minimum. Quit putting the two on the same standard. Still think science is blind faith? Jump off a building. See which one is more likely to happen. Broken bones or God saving you.
    Prove to me that there is nowhere else in the entire universe where the angle of incidence does not equal the angle of refraction and we can talk. I mean if science were so exact, why do so many scientists fight with each other? It is just a form of faith--faith in a methodology.

  7. #177
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    Yes of course I do.
    So you wish to impose your beliefs on others, but you don't want others to impose their beliefs on you?

  8. #178
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Science is the process of ascertaining what reality is. You may not accept some scientific theories -- for example, I reject all the evidence that second-hand smoke causes lung cancer, as I do not believe the method used to reach the conclusion was sound.

    However, if you have beliefs, for religious or other purposes, that you cannot die in a fire because you have on "magic underwear", or that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs, you have no right -- in your capacity as my neighbor, representative or fellow voter -- to impose such nonsense on me. You cannot call such beliefs "science", and I should not be buying textbooks for schoolchildren via my tax dollars that teach such silliness. If you believe your gay child is possessed by the devil, that's sad. But if you try and torture that child to "convert" him or "cleanse" him, I'll be sending the cops along to arrest you for child abuse.

    There is a difference between thinking abortion is wrong and thinking abortion does not exist, or is killing off a race of aliens.

    So, my fundamentalist fellow Americans: feel free to embrace your fairy tales...but do not ask me to pay for them.

    What say you?
    So long as real colleges admit people based, at least partially, on learning actual science in science, I am not too concerned.

    The accreditation bodies are thus where my real concerns are.

    I doubt many only high school educated people will be in a position where their lack of scientific education will matter. If they want to deceive themselves, at least they won't hurt anyone else.

  9. #179
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So you wish to impose your beliefs on others, but you don't want others to impose their beliefs on you?
    Of COURSE they do.
    YOU can't legislate morality - THEY can.

  10. #180
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    Your last sentence is untrue. Curiosity is the hallmark of science it is how theories and ideas are made. We do not work on an assembly line. Flexibility is a vague term. If you are saying thinking outside the box, I must also disagree with you there. A scientist who practices good science MUST be able to be flexible. If his idea or experiment does not work he must be flexible enough to discard it and flexible enough to think of a new way to deal with it. If you are talking about flexibility within the scientific method or ethic then I will say that yes there is no flexibility here because these concepts are necessary for doing good science
    Wolfman you will notice I took pains to differintiate scientists of whom not all of them are inflexible and dogmatic and I would venture to say a majority of scientists that are true to the scientific method. I said that a large part of them were not. Flexibility with method or ethic was in no way what I was describing, but rather flexibility in stretching the mind, and inate curiosity to explore new avenues of thought. I am quite fortunate to work with people in a field that are truly passionate about their science and engineering and vigously ridgid and even ruthless in their application of the Method. That said I notice in some fields this ruthless rigor is not so strenuously applied. Climate scientists being the group that stands out. Their rigor in method application is suspect. I am not saying all of them, but definately I would say a more than a few.
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