View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #141
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    That bit about only local funding for some school districts would do nothing more than exacerbate the problems low-income districts are already experiencing. It would create an even more divided society than we are already experiencing in this nation.

    As many of the states presently controlled by Republicans receive more funding from the federal government than they pay in taxes, it would be interesting to observe the consequences and screams when those states begin to comprehend the reality of greatly decreased funding.
    The money they are getting comes with strings attached, many strings. This means the the school cannot color outside the lines so to speak. Like I keep telling everybody time to think radically. Its not money thats wrong with a lot of these inner city schools, its the buerocratic way of thinking in them. There are plenty of schools in this country that are not blessed with money yet routinely excel. Most private schools subsist on half what a public school is allocated.

    If I was running a public school district, first thing I would do is take a look at administraive costs and begin severe cuts wherevere possible to make sure as much went to the classroom as possible. I would then take a long hard look at the instructors and fire the lowest 25% right off the bat. I would hope and pray they strike at that point and kill the union contract and fire them all, replacing them with hungry intructors that dont have much experiance teaching. If they dont strike then they be on notice they perform or else. All testing would be performed by outside contracted personel twice a year. Once at the begining of school the second at the end of school. The most successful instructors will be kept the least dropped. Tenure would be eliminated. It would be run like a business, their performance will be measured and graded just like their students. Their business is to instruct students. They do that successfully and be rewarded, or fail and be fired. In exchange for the increased responsibility those that perform very well will be paid better, and all will be givin much greater leaway as to how they conduct their classes. One cannot expect greater responsibility without greater freedom. Thats how I would do it. Demand and expect results. And reward based on those results. The bottom line being students leaving the school, knowing what they came to learn.
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  2. #142
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    If I truly believed it was "Me" that I had a bone to pick with, you wouldn't have anyone to talk to right now because I'd be in a box buried next to my father.
    .
    Well then,what are the "issues" that you have to "pick a bone with a higher power".
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post

    No, life isn't easy and it was never intended to be easy. The trick is knowing which opportunities are good for this side of the Veil, which are good for the other side, and which few work for both. That is the way I was taught, and what I have come to believe even more after my separation from the church.
    And yet you still have a 'bone to pick" with the higher powers while I don't.I know nothing about what goes on the "Otherside" and there seems to be no "universal" agreement on that,or even if there is an "Otherside".Whenever an opportunity comes my way,all I have to go on is my instincts as to how it can benefit me,my family,and my employees and minimize any harm it may comes to others.I never worry about how it effects the Afterlife.That will happen if and when it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Yes, that same power created both of us. I don't want to get into a massive spiritual discussion here. This is neither the time nor the place. Let me just say that I believe in a concept of limited free will which generally leaves us with enough rope to hang ourselves.
    Of course you are free to believe that.Me,I tie that rope to a grappling hook and climb higher,rather than use it to hang myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I've never really stopped blaming "God", and probably never will. I do now have a very different viewpoint of the Divine than I did 12 years ago. I just wish I'd had this viewpoint many years ago. Things might have been considerably less painful over time.
    That of course is your decision and choice.



    I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. There have been at least two moment where without the intervention of another person I would have been gone. Dumb luck and poor timing being the only things that have kept me here on those two occasions.[/QUOTE]

  3. #143
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Goshin, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but I must point out:

    You have no idea how the scientfic community operates.

    Beg to differ sir. You don't know who I know, or what information I have.

    To pretend that scientists are not under pressure from various sources, through their natural desires for things like funding, salary, tenure, recognition, and social acceptance, to produce results that often fit within certain parameters that are often not strictly objective, is to deny human realities. Scientists are not some pure secular priesthood who are above concerns about money, status, fame, and social acceptance.
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-08-12 at 06:58 PM.

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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    There is no reason to limit this to science or religion. The principle at work in your question is one based upon human liberty. It is not: "Do I have the right to impose my religion or my phony science upon you?" but "Do I have the right to impose my will upon my fellow man in any context?" Answer question #2 and you answer question #1.
    You ask a very interesting ethical question. I predict it will therefore be ignored.

  5. #145
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    How are we as a society to define "discipline" and "abuse"? What one group sees as natural discipline, another bunch of folks will call child abuse. How do we accommodate the two factions?
    The commonly accepted standard in my state is that spanking a child on the buttocks, legs or hand is okay, as long as it does not result in any injuries requiring medical treatment or leaves any marks after 24 hours, nor is otherwise "unusual or excessive".

    "rabid atheists" generally don't care about their children being "exposed to Christmas". They do care about their children being coerced into participation in religious ceremonies in public schools.
    There have been lawsuits, so apparently some do.


    What if a majority of a politician's constituency supports his denouncement of scientific knowledge? Does the majority get to change the definition of science simply because they really and truly believe nonsense to be real?
    There are things that are essentially self-evident, like gravity, which cannot be denied because they're obviously there. There are things that can be called into question, like anthropogenic-global-warming-as-a-actual-TEOTWAWKI-disaster. There are thing that can be PRESENTED in ways which can create problems for some parents' beliefs, like presenting evolution in a manner that implies it as a disproof of a Creator God.

    When I was in high school biology, the teacher started off evolution theory by saying "There are two major schools of thought about the origins of life, one being Creationism and the other being Evolution. As part of the school curriculum, I must teach you evolution, and you must learn about it. This in no way implies that the school district endorses one idea over the other, just that evolution is the accepted scientific theory and so you have to learn it." He then steadfastly refused, despite being asked persistently by a couple of students, to say which he believed.

    Personally I thought that was a pretty good way to handle it.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #146
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    But surely some things must simply be truths. Is it a belief that gravity attracts mass to other mass? Is it a belief that UV radiation causes skin cancer? Is it a belief that this planet is more than half composed of salt water? Is it a belief that F=MA? Is it a belief that stars are billions of miles away, and not pinpricks in a blanket over the Earth?

    The trouble with this kind of notion is that some beliefs straight up contradict truth. Young Earth Creationists believe things that are demonstrably wrong. Christian Scientists who think that medicine is unnecessary are wrong. How much harm are people who hold wrong beliefs allowed to do?

    Now mind you, we can punish each person who harms according to a wrong belief, but then there will always be more, and then more harm. It will never end until the wrong beliefs go away. Beliefs that women who didn't conform to expected standards had made a pact with the devil and ought to be killed... they went away. Beliefs that twins were evil and should be killed... they went away. Beliefs that deformed children should be cast away to die... they went away, too.

    Beliefs are dangerous. Things you know, that you can prove, those can be debated and discussed. They can be analyzed. You can figure out if they're good or bad. Beliefs are just "I believe xyz, and there's nothing you can say to change that." Unchangeable positions that aren't subject to examination are dangerous.

    That's why belief is bad. Knowledge is good. Belief is bad.

    You can't impose on people to destroy their beliefs, or forbid them to teach their children their beliefs, unless you're ready to give up personal liberty and democracy and enact totalitarianism and the Thought Police.

    Bad beliefs, as you noted, tend to die out over time. Be patient and time will tell what beliefs are good, and which are bad.

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  7. #147
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    But surely some things must simply be truths. Is it a belief that gravity attracts mass to other mass? Is it a belief that UV radiation causes skin cancer? Is it a belief that this planet is more than half composed of salt water? Is it a belief that F=MA? Is it a belief that stars are billions of miles away, and not pinpricks in a blanket over the Earth?

    The trouble with this kind of notion is that some beliefs straight up contradict truth. Young Earth Creationists believe things that are demonstrably wrong. Christian Scientists who think that medicine is unnecessary are wrong. How much harm are people who hold wrong beliefs allowed to do?
    So you believe it is wrong to harm others because of one's beliefs?

  8. #148
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You can't impose on people to destroy their beliefs, or forbid them to teach their children their beliefs, unless you're ready to give up personal liberty and democracy and enact totalitarianism and the Thought Police.
    No, but you subject everyone to rules based on objective facts and don't allow rules based on unfounded beliefs.

    Bad beliefs, as you noted, tend to die out over time. Be patient and time will tell what beliefs are good, and which are bad.
    That's little consolation to those who suffer now.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  9. #149
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Goshin wrote

    "rabid atheists" generally don't care about their children being "exposed to Christmas". They do care about their children being coerced into participation in religious ceremonies in public schools.
    There have been lawsuits, so apparently some do.
    You might wish to do a bit more investigation before asserting that bit about atheists and Christmas

    The only lawsuit I could find with a quick Google had a bit different focus
    Former teachers, Jehovah's Witnesses file discrimination lawsuit against school district

    Two former teachers are suing the Lee County School District saying their school's principal discriminated against them and declined to re-hire them after learning they are Jehovah's Witnesses.

    In December 2010, Bell held a faculty meeting where she demanded the entire faculty participate in a mandatory Christmas activity, emphasizing "I don't care what religion you are," according to the suit.

    After the meeting, the Rosaleses wrote Bell an email explaining their religion doesn't permit celebrating Christmas. The email went unanswered, according to the lawsuit, and the Rosaleses didn't attend the Christmas event.
    Then there is the following tale of xian persecution
    Girl sues school district over Christmas party invitations

    A fifth-grade girl has sued the Pocono Mountain School District, claiming its policies on religious speech violated her First Amendment rights after her teacher and principal stopped her from giving classmates invitations to a church Christmas party.

    Sharp declined to identify the church that K.A. and her family attend, although he did say it is an independent Christian church in Monroe County. The lawsuit describes K.A. as a "Bible-believing Christian" who is compelled to share her faith with her classmates by inviting them to church events.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  10. #150
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Beg to differ sir. You don't know who I know, or what information I have.

    To pretend that scientists are not under pressure from various sources, through their natural desires for things like funding, salary, tenure, recognition, and social acceptance, to produce results that often fit within certain parameters that are often not strictly objective, is to deny human realities. Scientists are not some pure secular priesthood who are above concerns about money, status, fame, and social acceptance.
    No one is denying that scientists, like us, have their own personal views and are subjected to outside pressure. That's not the part of your post I have a problem with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    "publish or perish" is their motto, and attempting to publish theories that contract the popular scientific dogma of the moment is rarely smiled upon.
    This is.

    Let me put this as simple as I can: The scientific community is amongst the most competitive fields in the world. I know it's hard to imagine a bunch of people in lab coats actually getting aggressive, which is probably why its so easy for people to conceive them as easily manipulated. But let's get to the point; scientists don't get famous because they agree with one another. If my buddy whose studies evolutionary biology came out to a committee and announced "Darwin was right!", he wouldn't get jack ****. Likewise, a NASA engineer stating that a large amount of force is required to escape Earths gravitational shouldn't expect a Nobel Prize anytime soon.

    Ya know how scientists get famous? Be either discovering something new, or by proving other scientists wrong.
    If some physicist came forward and provided evidence that proved gravity wrong, then you can bet that he/she/it could expect a planet named after them.

    Science has always been about discovering new things, finding new reasons and explanations. I find it a bit difficult that the 97% of scientists who agree on global warming are all part of one giant conspiracy, or all the support of evolution is driven by some secret agenda. You state that scientists have their own needs and wants and use that to discredit them, but ignore that scientists inhabit every corner of the globe, and are composed of people with different ethnicites, races, social statuses, economic classes, and political groups. I find it hard to believe that all members of the scientific community all share this same xeno-idea-phobic collectivist mindset. Considering that a Methodist priest developed the Big Bang Theory, or an agnostic named Charles Darwin theorized evolution, or an avid Christian like Newton manifested gravity into what we can understand, I simply find it odd that you maintain that they all are 'in on it'.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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