View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #131
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    Verthaine's Avatar
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I like your style brother. More business men need to think like you. The art of being successfull is learning how to recognize opportunity and then take advantage. Amen and keep preaching.
    Thank you very kindly.
    I may not be the most educated person on this forum.
    I wasn't the greatest student out there.
    I was working in the restaurant business for almost 20 years,and being the owner/executive chef of a fine dining restaurant for 5 year of them before I finally got a master's degree in culinary arts and restaurant management.

    But I was lucky to have these things at a very early age:
    A love and talent for cooking.
    Parents that didn't fill my head wit their ideologies.
    A drive to always do the best I can.
    A family with a history of good cooks.

    While other kids wanted G.I.Joe action figures,I wanted an "Eazy-Bake Oven".
    While other kids were reading Batman Comics,I was reading Betty Crocker Cookbooks.
    While other kids had paper routes and lemonade stands,I was helping my mom make sandwiches,pies,cookies and cakes,and helping her sell them out of a beat up used old "Meals on Wheels" truck my dad bought her.

    By my second year of highschool,I was already a better cook than the Culinary Arts teacher whose class I took.Probably the only class that I aced.

  2. #132
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Thats their business. Not ours. It should be their money and people and time involved not ours. Again thats why we are even having this arguement. Time to start thinking radically. We are not a uninform people. What works one place doesnt work in another.

    That bit about only local funding for some school districts would do nothing more than exacerbate the problems low-income districts are already experiencing. It would create an even more divided society than we are already experiencing in this nation.

    As many of the states presently controlled by Republicans receive more funding from the federal government than they pay in taxes, it would be interesting to observe the consequences and screams when those states begin to comprehend the reality of greatly decreased funding.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  3. #133
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    There certainly are basic facts that cannot be refuted but a decent science teacher in high school should be including all of the "It depends" factors while teaching.
    Unfortunately, in my experience, and the experiences of many others I know, that is not how it was or is done. That is what causes a large amount of the problem, so far as I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Simply because a science teacher states that X is true, a scientific fact, but you don't believe X is true simply because you don't accept the logic of the statement ain't gonna change reality.
    Maybe, maybe not.

  4. #134
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    No, they don't. Scientists hypothesize or speculate.
    No, actually, scientists sometimes believe before they create or use the tools required to acquire knowledge as I said. This is just a fact merely because they are human. I'm sure there are scientists who believe in their hypotheses before they test them and believe in the possibility of finding vaccines before they discover or create them.

  5. #135
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I agree for the most part that children should study religions other than the one they follow at home. I would insert the word "comparative" into the title of the Religious Studies class name.

    The problem comes when one actually gets into the fundamentals of the class and the curriculum - we have far too many in this country who would seize the opportunity offered by a "Comparative Religious Studies" class to proselytize for their specific beliefs while denigrating all others. We already have admitted creationists teaching their biblical beliefs in biology classes, I'm afraid the same would happen in any classroom looking at world religions.
    I agree. Proselytizing would be a potential consequence of introducing such classes. However, I think the cons of not having such classes are much more than the cons of having some teachers abuse their power. Moreover, the latter can be combated by parents or anyone else who finds out that a teacher is abusing their power in such a manner.

  6. #136
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Hypothesizing is not the same as believing. Believing means holding an idea dearly enough that you make decisions based on it. Thinking "I wonder if this is true... let's find out!" is not holding a belief. Even thinking "I think this is true, let's find out." is not holding a belief. Not the kind of belief we're talking about in this thread.
    I didn't say anything about hypothesizing. I said "scientists often have to believe before they create or use the tools required to acquire knowledge." I suspect the "sometimes have to" could be arguable, but many do, nonetheless. For example, the scientists who developed the Polio vaccine most likely believed that a vaccine was possible in spite of the probable criticism they received. If they did not believe, then they would have had no reason to pursue it.

    It's the same with scientists working to find treatments, vaccines and cures for diseases like AIDS, MS and the like. The most likely BELIEVE that such medical advances are possible.

    In a similar light, it's just as likely the many scientists, while hypothesizing, believe in their hypotheses and are motivated by the belief to test it. In fact, I would bet that most scientists are, at some point or another, motivated by their belief in a hypothesis. In addition to that, there are plenty of situations, scientific or not, in which belief is either positive or neutral. Your "belief bad" comment was an oversimplification and you should just admit that instead of protesting. A better argument would be, "when knowledge is available, it's better to choose it over mere belief." That's much more reasonable.

    Also, the definition of "believe" is "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so." It isn't the bull**** definition you provided with the intent to maintain your confirmation bias.

  7. #137
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I'm not mad. Trust me, you don't ever want to see me in person when I'm mad. You wouldn't like me when I get angry.
    I can respect that.I'm the exact same way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    No, not because you took the opportunities.... Because the opportunities were there and available in the first place. It's not you and your family I'm frustrated with. You're just doing what you think is right and in your best interest. It's a much higher power that I have a bone to pick with, and that's not going to be settled until after this life is over.
    I can't help but wonder,Tigger,is it a "Higher Power" that you have a bone to pick with,or is it "You" that you have that bone to pick with.

    No one said life was ever going to be easy.
    There are always obstacles to overcome,but there are always opportunities to seize also.

    The big difference between you and me is that I never let ideologies get in the way of seizing those opportunities.
    If you believe that some "Higher Power" doesn't want you to work for somebody just because of their gender,then that's on you.
    In your belief system didn't the "Higher Power" that created you create me also?

    My mom was a very religious woman herself.She made me go to church.I just never believed what she believed.My mom understood that I had to go my own way.That has always been the key to my success and happiness.I always remained true to my own path,not someone elses.

    My first wife was a religious spiritual church going woman herself who always tried to live the way her religion taught her. I never tried to stop her from going to church and she ended up bleeding to death in her car while the fire department struggled to free her from that wreckage,because some jackass decided to get drunk and start up his car and go for a ride. I didn't blame some higher power (or the firemen) because of it. I blame that jackass.

    My second wife Selena wasn't always an atheist.She was a good,church going christian,just like her husband (also a doctor,just not as good as Lena.Thst seemed to always been a big problwm for him).For some reason,everytime she tried to get pregnant and start a family,she'd miscarry.Then she got ovarian cancer,and removing her ovaries was the only way to save her life.When she was finally well enough to go home,her good god fearing christian husband tried to talk her into getting their marriage annulled.If that wasn't bad enough,the good godfearing people of the church she used to go to started to treat her like she was some pariah,some untouchable.
    She couldn't understand what she did to make "God" punish her like that.So she became an atheist.
    For a time,she even stopped dating because a number of men bolted the moment the they found out there was "nothing in there".

    By the time we met,she was called "Dr Iceberg".
    I already had 3 kids,and I never treat Lena like was less of a woman because she longer had ovaries.When I first brought her home to have dinner with me and my daughters (I believe they were 19, 13,and 8 years old) my daughters fawned over her.They were happy because I was happy.When we got married,my youngest ran right into Lena's arms,gave her a big hug and said "I love you mommy" (Lena never insisted that my daughters call her "mom",and it took my oldest a few years to finally call her that).The tears of happiness that Lena shed is something I'll never forget.

    When Selena finally decided to stop blaming "God" and just go on with her life,she finally found happiness.And three rambunctious daughters who love her.

    On another thread I once told you,"at this moment,there has been nothing you ever encountered that was strong enough to take you out".





    True. Then again, if I'm wrong about what's on the other side, then there was no point in being here in the first place, so it's really a moot point.[/QUOTE]

  8. #138
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post

    So, my fundamentalist fellow Americans: feel free to embrace your fairy tales...but do not ask me to pay for them.
    If this position were universal, entitlement programs would would disappear and we'd have no issue paying off our national debt.

  9. #139
    Educator OnWisconsin's Avatar
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    He does it so well I'll just leave my reply to this thread up to good ole Hitchens.



    Christopher Hitchens Explains Why Religion Poisons Everything - YouTube
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  10. #140
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    I can't help but wonder,Tigger,is it a "Higher Power" that you have a bone to pick with,or is it "You" that you have that bone to pick with.
    If I truly believed it was "Me" that I had a bone to pick with, you wouldn't have anyone to talk to right now because I'd be in a box buried next to my father.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    No one said life was ever going to be easy. There are always obstacles to overcome,but there are always opportunities to seize also.
    No, life isn't easy and it was never intended to be easy. The trick is knowing which opportunities are good for this side of the Veil, which are good for the other side, and which few work for both. That is the way I was taught, and what I have come to believe even more after my separation from the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    The big difference between you and me is that I never let ideologies get in the way of seizing those opportunities. If you believe that some "Higher Power" doesn't want you to work for somebody just because of their gender,then that's on you. In your belief system didn't the "Higher Power" that created you create me also?
    Yes, that same power created both of us. I don't want to get into a massive spiritual discussion here. This is neither the time nor the place. Let me just say that I believe in a concept of limited free will which generally leaves us with enough rope to hang ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    ....When Selena finally decided to stop blaming "God" and just go on with her life,she finally found happiness.And three rambunctious daughters who love her.
    I've never really stopped blaming "God", and probably never will. I do now have a very different viewpoint of the Divine than I did 12 years ago. I just wish I'd had this viewpoint many years ago. Things might have been considerably less painful over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    On another thread I once told you,"at this moment,there has been nothing you ever encountered that was strong enough to take you out".
    I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. There have been at least two moment where without the intervention of another person I would have been gone. Dumb luck and poor timing being the only things that have kept me here on those two occasions.

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