View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #121
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I don't want to get into a massive spiritual/religious debate on this. I could have said "The other side of the Veil" or something like that, if you'd have prefered.



    I'm not asking anyone to pay for my faith. Hell, I don't even belong to an organized religious group, so I can't even say some clergyman who represents me is getting government support through tax exemptions or anything. I don't believe in teaching Creationism, my views on how the world came to be, or anything of the sort in public schools either. All I would like to see is the scientific community admit that they don't have an answer for everything and that they still DON'T KNOW quite a bit about almost everything. Until they are willing to do that, and to accept that not everyone is going to bow down before the altar of Science; I will not send any child of mine to a public school. I'm not asking you (or anyone else) to support my viewpoint financially. I'm just asking you not to stick your nose into what I would teach my own children, on my own time, in my own home.
    Your prejudice against reality and academia does cause you to make some silly statements.

    Just what do you think science is? If scientists already knew everything, they would be out of a job. Science is asking questions about stuff we don't know yet.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  2. #122
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    We dont need national standards, thats what got us into this mess in the first place. Everybody is argueing about what should go into them and be left out. The market can sort that out. Schools should be funded and controlled locally. I mean real localy. Each school should be its own entity supported by its users. That way the people who use have the most say in what goes on in it.

    Tell me then why every nation that is doing better in educating its young people operates under nationally controlled educational systems?


    "Local control" of schooling in the US has all too often meant that uneducated persons are running educational systems.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  3. #123
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I'd have no problem with localizing textbook purchases, but I do think we need national standards on their contents.

    There's an efficiency of scale lost when you don't buy in bulk, but if people want to pay more, I have no heartburn over it.
    On that last, texts are bought in bulk only at the district/local level, not at the national level.

  4. #124
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Your prejudice against reality and academia does cause you to make some silly statements.

    Just what do you think science is? If scientists already knew everything, they would be out of a job. Science is asking questions about stuff we don't know yet.
    The problem being, that's NOT the way it's presented in our schools. Science is presented in every school I've ever been associated with, by every science teacher I've ever encountered as Gospel Truth in as much as any Fire and Brimstone Baptist Preacher presents The Holy Bible as Gospel Truth every Sunday morning.

  5. #125
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Your comment was good until it delved into this gross simplification of the issue.

    "Belief good. Knowledge bad." is not a good argument if only for the fact that scientists often have to believe before they create or use the tools required to acquire knowledge.
    Hypothesizing is not the same as believing. Believing means holding an idea dearly enough that you make decisions based on it. Thinking "I wonder if this is true... let's find out!" is not holding a belief. Even thinking "I think this is true, let's find out." is not holding a belief. Not the kind of belief we're talking about in this thread.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  6. #126
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    You mad Tigger? That just sounds so petty,bitter and jealous on your part. One would think you are wishing harm and punishment on me and my family just because I took whatever opportunities that came my way,ran with it,and reaped the rewards and benefits because of it,and you didn't.
    I'm not mad. Trust me, you don't ever want to see me in person when I'm mad. You wouldn't like me when I get angry.

    No, not because you took the opportunities.... Because the opportunities were there and available in the first place. It's not you and your family I'm frustrated with. You're just doing what you think is right and in your best interest. It's a much higher power that I have a bone to pick with, and that's not going to be settled until after this life is over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    Neither of us really KNOWS what's in store for either of us on the OTHERSIDE.
    True. Then again, if I'm wrong about what's on the other side, then there was no point in being here in the first place, so it's really a moot point.

  7. #127
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    We sure as hell do need national standards if some school boards would bless religion replacing science in their schools -- and you know damned well, many would.
    Thats their business. Not ours. It should be their money and people and time involved not ours. Again thats why we are even having this arguement. Time to start thinking radically. We are not a uninform people. What works one place doesnt work in another.
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  8. #128
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Tell me then why every nation that is doing better in educating its young people operates under nationally controlled educational systems?


    "Local control" of schooling in the US has all too often meant that uneducated persons are running educational systems.
    The reason it works elsewhere is because they have fairly homgounous societies. We dont. What works for the Germans dont work for the French ect. We are not Europe or Japan or like any other place on Earth. We have been making national standards and taking away local control for how long now? Is it working? Like I tell Pinkie, time to think differently. There fifty different states with several thousand differnt counties and parishes. Local funding, local standards, local control. Education in as individual as you and I. Its time start thinking the way we used to. Which is we can do it ourselves better.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  9. #129
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    "Local control" of schooling in the US has all too often meant that uneducated persons are running educational systems.
    Just realize that all total "nationalization" of the education system will do is mean fewer and fewer kids in it as homeschooling booms out of control.

  10. #130
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    The problem being, that's NOT the way it's presented in our schools. Science is presented in every school I've ever been associated with, by every science teacher I've ever encountered as Gospel Truth in as much as any Fire and Brimstone Baptist Preacher presents The Holy Bible as Gospel Truth every Sunday morning.
    There certainly are basic facts that cannot be refuted but a decent science teacher in high school should be including all of the "It depends" factors while teaching.

    One example would be gravitational force: On our world, if you drop something, it will fall at a rate of 32ft/sec/per sec. That is a scientific fact BUT, depending on weight and volume and shape of the object, at a certain point as it is falling air resistance will mean the rate no longer increases. In a vacuum, a feather and a lead ball will fall at the same speed but not when there is an atmosphere.

    On the moon, the gravitational force is less, so a dropped object will fall at a slower speed - it depends upon the mass of the two objects being studied.

    Evolution is real, it has been observed, all known relics show evolutionary changes occur in living species - that is a fact. We know some of the reasons for evolution but not all of them - so study continues.

    We know life came into existence on this planet about 3.4 billion years in the past. We don't know exactly how it happened but there are various hypotheses on the matter and study continues.

    Simply because a science teacher states that X is true, a scientific fact, but you don't believe X is true simply because you don't accept the logic of the statement ain't gonna change reality.

    There are teachers who make absolutely positive statements simply because they think it is an effective way to teach a subject. "This is the answer, memorise it, you will be tested on it!" For some kids it works, for others it don't. There is no one totally effective style in teaching because there is no one track thru human brains. Individuality does cause problems for teachers. Good teachers figure out ways to teach the same subject in different ways, if and when they are given the time to do it.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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