View Poll Results: Does An American Have Freedom Of Science?

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  • No; there are limits to religious freedom when that is contradicted by science

    5 19.23%
  • Science cannot limit an American's freedom of religion

    7 26.92%
  • Sometimes. Kids should be taught whatever their parents want, but not abused.

    2 7.69%
  • I think my religion explains the world and I have no use for science

    0 0%
  • What I do in my private life is my own business, and I can raise my kids however I like

    10 38.46%
  • No opinion or undecided

    2 7.69%
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Thread: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

  1. #111
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    We'll see how that works out for the lot of you on the OTHER side of Eternity.
    Logical flaw is illogical, Tigger.

  2. #112
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Logical flaw is illogical, Tigger.
    FAITH rather than Logic is the basis of the comment; so the illogic of it is immaterial, Pinky. Some of us choose to experience the world with a different set of senses from the ones you prefer. That's fine. I have no problem with you choosing to limit the senses you use to experience to world, just please don't tell me that I have to as well.

  3. #113
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I'd have no problem with localizing textbook purchases, but I do think we need national standards on their contents.

    There's an efficiency of scale lost when you don't buy in bulk, but if people want to pay more, I have no heartburn over it.
    We dont need national standards, thats what got us into this mess in the first place. Everybody is argueing about what should go into them and be left out. The market can sort that out. Schools should be funded and controlled locally. I mean real localy. Each school should be its own entity supported by its users. That way the people who use have the most say in what goes on in it.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  4. #114
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    FAITH rather than Logic is the basis of the comment; so the illogic of it is immaterial, Pinky. Some of us choose to experience the world with a different set of senses from the ones you prefer. That's fine. I have no problem with you choosing to limit the senses you use to experience to world, just please don't tell me that I have to as well.
    The logical flaw is that if eternity is eternal, it cannot have an "other side".

    As for faith, I have it myself, Tigger. Mine is different than yours. Do I have any right to force you to pay for mine through taxation, etc.?


  5. #115
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    We dont need national standards, thats what got us into this mess in the first place. Everybody is argueing about what should go into them and be left out. The market can sort that out. Schools should be funded and controlled locally. I mean real localy. Each school should be its own entity supported by its users. That way the people who use have the most say in what goes on in it.
    We sure as hell do need national standards if some school boards would bless religion replacing science in their schools -- and you know damned well, many would.

  6. #116
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Your comment was good until it delved into this gross simplification of the issue.

    "Belief good. Knowledge bad." is not a good argument if only for the fact that scientists often have to believe before they create or use the tools required to acquire knowledge.
    No, they don't. Scientists hypothesize or speculate.

    However, belief is not bad -- what's bad is when you use mistakenly rely on religion or faith or belief at a decision point that is science-driven.

  7. #117
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    1. Discipline yes. Beat abusively no.

    2. Those who want their children to be educated in a certain manner differing substantially from societal norms should put their children in private schools. This would include rabid atheists who don't want their children exposed to Christmas as much as fundamentalists who don't want their children exposed to evolution. Vouchers.

    3. Denounce? As is "speak against"? Sure, anyone can say anything. Denounce as in "try to block it"? Well, the bugger's got to stand to election doesn't he? Hold him accountable at the polls.
    How are we as a society to define "discipline" and "abuse"? What one group sees as natural discipline, another bunch of folks will call child abuse. How do we accommodate the two factions?

    "rabid atheists" generally don't care about their children being "exposed to Christmas". They do care about their children being coerced into participation in religious ceremonies in public schools.

    What if a majority of a politician's constituency supports his denouncement of scientific knowledge? Does the majority get to change the definition of science simply because they really and truly believe nonsense to be real?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  8. #118
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    The logical flaw is that if eternity is eternal, it cannot have an "other side".
    I don't want to get into a massive spiritual/religious debate on this. I could have said "The other side of the Veil" or something like that, if you'd have prefered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    As for faith, I have it myself, Tigger. Mine is different than yours. Do I have any right to force you to pay for mine through taxation, etc.?
    I'm not asking anyone to pay for my faith. Hell, I don't even belong to an organized religious group, so I can't even say some clergyman who represents me is getting government support through tax exemptions or anything. I don't believe in teaching Creationism, my views on how the world came to be, or anything of the sort in public schools either. All I would like to see is the scientific community admit that they don't have an answer for everything and that they still DON'T KNOW quite a bit about almost everything. Until they are willing to do that, and to accept that not everyone is going to bow down before the altar of Science; I will not send any child of mine to a public school. I'm not asking you (or anyone else) to support my viewpoint financially. I'm just asking you not to stick your nose into what I would teach my own children, on my own time, in my own home.

  9. #119
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    This has nothing to do with "moddycoddling the fundies." It has to do with the knowledge people must have in order to be effective students and citizens as well as critical thinkers. A nation as ignorant as it is about religion now is self-defeating. People's ignorance about Islam has caused them to support foreign policy that might decrease our national security. People's ignorance about Christianity has much of the population supporting laws based on that religion that many would not if they actually knew anything about the Bible and religion they claim allegiance to.

    Religion classes might, in some sense, seem needless, but considering that beliefs about religion significantly impact much of the countries social, political and personal views, such classes are actually quite important.
    I agree for the most part that children should study religions other than the one they follow at home. I would insert the word "comparative" into the title of the Religious Studies class name.

    The problem comes when one actually gets into the fundamentals of the class and the curriculum - we have far too many in this country who would seize the opportunity offered by a "Comparative Religious Studies" class to proselytize for their specific beliefs while denigrating all others. We already have admitted creationists teaching their biblical beliefs in biology classes, I'm afraid the same would happen in any classroom looking at world religions.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  10. #120
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    Re: You Have No Constitutional Right To Your Own Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    We'll see how that works out for the lot of you on the OTHER side of Eternity.
    You mad Tigger?
    That just sounds so petty,bitter and jealous on your part.
    One would think you are wishing harm and punishment on me and my family just because I took whatever opportunities that came my way,ran with it,and reaped the rewards and benefits because of it,and you didn't.

    Neither of us really KNOWS what's in store for either of us on the OTHERSIDE.
    But until that time comes,I'm going to continue to jump on any opportunity to make my businesses even greater successes.
    But until that time comes,I am going to take every opportunity that comes my way to give me,my wife,my progeny and my descendents every advantage to make our lives better.
    But until that time comes,I am going to do my best to overcome any obstacle that comes my,my wife,my progeny and my descendents way.

    But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the fruits of my labors.
    But until that time comes,I am going to enjoy the love of my beautiful wife,my daughters,and my grandchildren.

    Because I know that even if my business tank tomorrow,if my big fat bank account were to suddenly go "poof",if my big house and fancy car are taken away,I'll still be a very wealthy man because I know my wife,children and my grandchildren will still love and respect me.

    Both me and Lena both started out with nothing,and in the end,we'll leave with nothing.
    But in the meantime we Verthaines are a strong and hardy bunch ,and we'll survive one way or another,as we always have.
    As a family.

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