View Poll Results: Who won tonight's debate?

Voters
120. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barack Obama

    15 12.50%
  • Mitt Romney

    98 81.67%
  • It was a draw

    7 5.83%
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Thread: Who Won?

  1. #121
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    1. My original point - the one that started this - doesn't exclude the importance of the majority. It takes issue with judging who wins debates by looks alone. You and others seem to be arguing that since the majority of the public cares mostly about looks, then that's how debates must be judged. That's one way to handle the problem. Another way is to be the change you wish to see and argue for something more than complacency. I choose the latter.
    I'm not saying that's how debates "should be" or "must be" judged. The simple reality is that, going back to the first debates between JFK and Nixon, that's simply how they ARE judged. Do I wish that debates would be judged differently? Perhaps with factcheckers standing on the sidelines giving out scores and calling out candidates for when they make **** up? Probably so. That doesn't change the reality it's public perception that really matters when it comes to winning these Presidential debates. Everything else is irrelevant.

    2. What the majority thinks is the only thing that matters in an election if and only if you decide to make that the only thing that matters to you. The fact is that what "matters" is subjective. When it comes to the election in general, some people are voting 3rd party because their principles matter above everything else and others aren't voting at all because nobody represents what matters to them. When it comes to the debate, you and others have decided that what matters are looks and polls in spite of the fact that you may disagree that looks are the most important thing and that the majority know what they're talking about. I don't agree with that decision.
    From an individual standpoint, of course it's subjective. From the standpoint of trying to help yourself win in the polls and subsequently the election? Once again, it's public perception that matters.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Obama had the moral high ground thing going on in 2008; he doesn't now. What would he claim he cannot compromise on? It's not fair to expect to be dazzled by an incumbent, IMO.
    I would be dazzled if the president actually cut the deficit in half like he said he would.

  3. #123
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    I would be dazzled if the president actually cut the deficit in half like he said he would.
    Who wouldn't? It's a preposterous, totally unrealistic bit of bull**** that should get anyone who says it a tattoo on their forehead that says "I'm A Liar", but the public keeps expecting it -- hell, even demanding it.

  4. #124
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No, but that is completely irrelevant. Winning Presidential debates, as I said before, is about perception more than reality, style rather than substance. If you judge who "won" the debate by who spewed less falsehoods and who made better arguments, then I think Obama is the winner, but the truth of the matter is that that isn't what really matters.
    I may quibble about the last bit, but the rest of it is spot on. Presidential debates are the act of portraying leadership, rather than demonstrating leadership.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #125
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Yeah, would definitely have been a hell of a lot more helpful if Obama specified just where he got the $5 trillion figure from instead of just repeating it four times.

    As for "soundbites" - debate performances thrive on simple soundbites. Sometimes it's in the debaters best interest to remain as vague as possible.
    Yeah.

    It's hard to do much when the time structure pretty much only allows soundbites. If they were given a great deal more time to speak, the generalities would be backed by more numbers (not a quick listing of goals, like Romney eloquently did last night), and there would be less sparring about who stepped over who's time limit. That being said, no one is interested in that style of debate, so no sense fussing about soundbites really at all.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  6. #126
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm not saying that's how debates "should be" or "must be" judged. The simple reality is that, going back to the first debates between JFK and Nixon, that's simply how they ARE judged. Do I wish that debates would be judged differently? Perhaps with factcheckers standing on the sidelines giving out scores and calling out candidates for when they make **** up? Probably so. That doesn't change the reality it's public perception that really matters when it comes to winning these Presidential debates. Everything else is irrelevant.

    From an individual standpoint, of course it's subjective. From the standpoint of trying to help yourself win in the polls and subsequently the election? Once again, it's public perception that matters.
    1. Since you "liked" Tucker post when he said that debates "should be" judged that way and then proceeded to defend the point, I took your argument to be that it "should be" that way as well. Moreover, you are, in fact, disagreeing with me according to how I think debates should be judged - which is by substance not the majority - so you are, in fact, arguing for how debates should be judged.

    2. If you aren't arguing for how debates should be judged and are instead just stating how debates are judged, period, then we don't disagree. The majority of people judge who won a debate by looks and by who appealed more the public. That is a fact. This fact is never what I disputed. I took issue with people's decision to go along with that standard of judgment.

    3. I don't disagree. Relative to winning, public perception is what matters. But that's not the point I'm making. My point is that the decision in and of itself to judge a debate performance relative solely to that standard is subjective. I have decided not to judge campaigns by the standard. TC, you and others disagree with that and that disagreement is subjective.

    In sum, I know that public perception and the majority are the most important thing for winning. This was never something that I contested. MY point has always been that we shouldn't judge debates by looks just because most of the public does and just because looks are the most important factor in winning. If you agree with that, great. If you don't, you're part of the problem.

  7. #127
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    In sum, I know that public perception and the majority are the most important thing for winning. This was never something that I contested. MY point has always been that we shouldn't judge debates by looks just because most of the public does and just because looks are the most important factor in winning. If you agree with that, great. If you don't, you're part of the problem.
    Eh, I say embrace it. Lose the idealism
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  8. #128
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Eh, I say embrace it. Lose the idealism
    Haha, well that seems to be the consensus, but many people in IRL have tried to crush the idealism out of me and it hasn't worked yet. There isn't a single influential change in the world that hasn't been brought about by seemingly naive idealism. Since that fact will never change, I suspect I won't either.

  9. #129
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    Re: Who Won?

    Romney did a good job at coming across as presidential and thought his best moment was when he brought up working with the Democrats in Massachusetts. Thought he came up with a good line "trickle down government". It was good to hear he has a more sophisticated understanding of regulation than typical far right rhetoric. Disappointing he won't in a wise fashion cut the bloated defense budget.

  10. #130
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No, but that is completely irrelevant. Winning Presidential debates, as I said before, is about perception more than reality, style rather than substance. If you judge who "won" the debate by who spewed less falsehoods and who made better arguments, then I think Obama is the winner, but the truth of the matter is that that isn't what really matters.
    Leadership, confidence, diplomacy, negotiation, all of these things can and typically are driven by perception. Perception IS one form of substance for executive positions. Sometimes (maybe even typically) it's valued more than all other narrowly defined "substance" combined.

    For example, if the lobbyists and high-powered substance people get in a room with either candidate, who appeared to be better able to wrangle them, and not just roll over? Is that perception or substance? And while that's hypothetical and overly dramatic, remember Bush and it's not so hypothetical. Clinton in contrast to Bush, wasn't one to be out-gunned in a discussion either. Clintons intelligence and his folksy charm, that too was substance. Not really comparing the two, just that certain qualities have real substantial value for leaders.

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