View Poll Results: Who won tonight's debate?

Voters
120. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barack Obama

    15 12.50%
  • Mitt Romney

    98 81.67%
  • It was a draw

    7 5.83%
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Thread: Who Won?

  1. #111
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Let me ask you a question: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?
    No, but that is completely irrelevant. Winning Presidential debates, as I said before, is about perception more than reality, style rather than substance. If you judge who "won" the debate by who spewed less falsehoods and who made better arguments, then I think Obama is the winner, but the truth of the matter is that that isn't what really matters.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #112
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by edeneen View Post
    it cured my insomnia
    It told me that Obama's hopes were pinned on anything but the actual debate. His discomfort was tangible.

  3. #113
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    Re: Who Won?

    It's funny to watch the partisan-left reactions. Even more considering how different they would have been had Romney screwed up and did good.

    At least looking at the poll some of them had the testicles to admit the truth as so many see it... they get credit for that.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  4. #114
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No, but that is completely irrelevant. Winning Presidential debates, as I said before, is about perception more than reality. If you judge who "won" the debate by who spewed less falsehoods and who made better arguments, then I think Obama is the winner, but the truth of the matter is that that isn't what really matters.
    Considering that question I asked you is the foundation of the point I made which is being criticized by you and TC, it's the most relevant thing in the discussion.

    The justification you and others have given for judging debates by looks is, "that's what the majority of citizens care about." Furthermore, you have argued that "Who REALLY won the debate is whoever seized the opportunity to help himself the most in terms of affecting the polls and the final election outcome." In other words, who won the debate is whoever has convinced the majority to vote for him. As a result, your judgement of who "won" the debate rests on what the majority thinks, period, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. My point is that they are wrong and, therefore, judging the debate by their standards and by how most of them feel, is problematic.

    So, again: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?

  5. #115
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Considering that question I asked you is the foundation of the point I made which is being criticized by you and TC, it's the most relevant thing in the discussion.

    The justification you and others have given for judging debates by looks is, "that's what the majority of citizens care about." Furthermore, you have argued that "Who REALLY won the debate is whoever seized the opportunity to help himself the most in terms of affecting the polls and the final election outcome." In other words, who won the debate is whoever has convinced the majority to vote for him. As a result, your judgement of who "won" the debate rests on what the majority thinks, period, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. My point is that they are wrong and, therefore, judging the debate by their standards and by how most of them feel, is problematic.

    So, again: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?
    In an election, it's what "the majority" thinks that matters, is what I'm saying. Winning only has real meaning in practical terms IMO.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #116
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No, but that is completely irrelevant. Winning Presidential debates, as I said before, is about perception more than reality, style rather than substance. If you judge who "won" the debate by who spewed less falsehoods and who made better arguments, then I think Obama is the winner, but the truth of the matter is that that isn't what really matters.
    Saying you don't think Romney won because he didn't win on the method YOU believe should really define who wins a debate even though you acknowledge by the standard way of judging it he probably would...

    is kind of like suggesting...

    that a high scoring NFL team didn't really "win" their game because you believe football should be about good defense and the team only won because the rules handcuff defenses, despite the fact you recognize that team scored 41 to the other teams 28

    You may think that one of them did better for you personally, or you may think the "game" should be played in a particular way, but you also have to deal with reality a bit as well when talking about it from the more macro stand point.

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    So, again: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?
    No.

    But just because you disagree with the majority doesn't mean that reality magically alters and what the majority chooses decides what occurs in this instance.

  8. #118
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In an election, it's what "the majority" thinks that matters, is what I'm saying. Winning only has real meaning in practical terms IMO.
    1. My original point - the one that started this - doesn't exclude the importance of the majority. It takes issue with judging who wins debates by looks alone. You and others seem to be arguing that since the majority of the public cares mostly about looks, then that's how debates must be judged. That's one way to handle the problem. Another way is to be the change you wish to see and argue for something more than complacency. I choose the latter.

    2. What the majority thinks is the only thing that matters in an election if and only if you decide to make that the only thing that matters to you. The fact is that what "matters" is subjective. When it comes to the election in general, some people are voting 3rd party because their principles matter above everything else and others aren't voting at all because nobody represents what matters to them. When it comes to the debate, you and others have decided that what matters are looks and polls in spite of the fact that you may disagree that looks are the most important thing and that the majority know what they're talking about. I don't agree with that decision.

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No.

    But just because you disagree with the majority doesn't mean that reality magically alters and what the majority chooses decides what occurs in this instance.
    Do you think that you could respond to me without a massive and incredibly condescending strawman?

  10. #120
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually this is one of the traits I think highlights why I thought Obama was a strong debater in 08.

    I described it earlier to a friend in stating that Obama had the capacity in debates to be extremely aggressive and attacking while doing so in a very civil and academic tone. It allowed the attacks and aggression to land, but it gives a different emotional response in a viewer than someone doing such in a tone that is emotional or angry/annoyed. It's a rather difficult talent to have, but is very effective.

    Romney, by the way, has been one of those that had a hard time attacking or being aggressive and not coming off emotional or angry or petulent when doing it in his previous debates. It's why I didn't have a lot of expectations for him yesterday. However, he shocked me because he basically pulled off that same tactic that Obama used in '08.

    I also think that is what somewhat helped to throw Obama off his game. His own style was played right back against him, and that's a style that...in part...feeds off making the other person emotional due to the attacks, and thus giving the impression that you're above such things and the more collected one. Obama got a bit flustered, and couldn't get Romney to go onto the full defensive (instead of the attacking defensive stance he was in for most of the debate), and didn't quite seem to know how to react to that style of debate coming his way.

    I think the next debate however will be far closer as the cats out of the bag now in a way in terms of Romney's approach to these debates.
    Obama had the moral high ground thing going on in 2008; he doesn't now. What would he claim he cannot compromise on? It's not fair to expect to be dazzled by an incumbent, IMO.

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