View Poll Results: Who won tonight's debate?

Voters
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  • Barack Obama

    15 12.50%
  • Mitt Romney

    98 81.67%
  • It was a draw

    7 5.83%
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Thread: Who Won?

  1. #101
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    Re: Who Won?

    Obama was definitely holding back. When Romney was talking about cooperating with the Democrats in the Massachusetts legislature, the unspoken elephant in the room was that the Republicans in congress have been astoundingly obstructionist in the last few years. The cooperation that Romney enjoyed has not been extended to the president. There were several such incidents where Obama chose not to say something true that would have caused conflict.

    The biggest thing that I disliked was how both candidates kept repeating statistics that the other discredited. Obama repeated the 5 trillion tax cut after Romney said he wouldn't do it, and Romney repeated the 700 billion "stealing" from medicare, even though the president said that wasn't true. That they stuck to their narrative instead of really responding to the other (though the president did a little such responding), made them both look bad.

    Romney also largely spoke in vague statements. What exactly does "championing" small businesses mean? It's a good soundbite, but Romney really didn't make his actual plan very clear. He spent a lot more time talking about what he wouldn't do than what he would. Also his math is impossible.

    As a matter of confidence and focus, Romney looked better. A later review shows that he was just blowing smoke. I'm not sure which one wins under those conditions. Probably neither one wins anything until Nov. 6.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Romney won, Obama lost.

    Romney didn't win big, Obama didn't lose big, but the gap between because one had a good debate and one had a poor one seems large.

    Mitt shocked me. After 08 and 12's primaries, I was NOT high on him as a debater. I agree with a talking head on CNN who stated that this was unlike anything we've seen from Romney before and his best national debate that he's done.

    I also disagree on the specifics issue. I think he came prepared for that insinuation and actually did a great job of reframing the situation with his statements regarding broad goals and then bipartisan efforts to get the specifics. IF he continues to nail that correctly, which is questionable, then he can manage to deflect the "specifics" attack while simultaneously winning points for presenting himself as someone who wishes to smooth the partisan divide.
    I'd say that's about right. Romney did a good job of defending himself from stuff that was taken out of context or otherwise misrepresented and did so without getting overly animated. He also looked a lot more involved than Obama did. Obama didn't look at Romney while Romney was speaking and thus appeared to be blowing off everything that was said....an impression which was then reinforced by his responses.

    Even though I'm not a particularly big Romney fan I was encouraged by what I saw and became a little more confident that his intentions were more in line with what I think needs to be done. I'm still not a big fan of many of his proposals and I still think he's about as milquetoast as they come but he did show a little spine and that's encouraging.

  3. #103
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Obama was definitely holding back. When Romney was talking about cooperating with the Democrats in the Massachusetts legislature, the unspoken elephant in the room was that the Republicans in congress have been astoundingly obstructionist in the last few years. The cooperation that Romney enjoyed has not been extended to the president. There were several such incidents where Obama chose not to say something true that would have caused conflict.

    The biggest thing that I disliked was how both candidates kept repeating statistics that the other discredited. Obama repeated the 5 trillion tax cut after Romney said he wouldn't do it, and Romney repeated the 700 billion "stealing" from medicare, even though the president said that wasn't true. That they stuck to their narrative instead of really responding to the other (though the president did a little such responding), made them both look bad.

    Romney also largely spoke in vague statements. What exactly does "championing" small businesses mean? It's a good soundbite, but Romney really didn't make his actual plan very clear. He spent a lot more time talking about what he wouldn't do than what he would. Also his math is impossible.

    As a matter of confidence and focus, Romney looked better. A later review shows that he was just blowing smoke. I'm not sure which one wins under those conditions. Probably neither one wins anything until Nov. 6.
    Yeah, would definitely have been a hell of a lot more helpful if Obama specified just where he got the $5 trillion figure from instead of just repeating it four times.

    As for "soundbites" - debate performances thrive on simple soundbites. Sometimes it's in the debaters best interest to remain as vague as possible.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #104
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Who "won" a presidential debate should be judged based on the effect that it has on the majority of voters, not on the effect it has on you, the individual.

    The majority of voters use superficial measures to decide who won. Ergo, the person who does best in the superficial sense wins the debate. If voters were truly informed on the issues, there would only have been a loser from the debate, and that loser would be the American people.

    Since the American people are content with nonsense, however, we are getting what we (collectively) deserve.
    Nah, I judge who "won" by my own standards, not by how it affects the majority of other voters and that's how it should be, at least for me. I care about substance - with how a candidate effects the public constituting a part, not the totality, of that standard.

    You're right, the majority of voters use superficial measures and I, like you it seems, view that as problematic. Now, I can either - to use the common quote - be the change I wish to see and judge the debate by more quality standards or I can judge the debate by looks like the American people who, as you said, "are content with nonsense" so that I increase my role in maintaining the problem. I have done and will continue to do the former.

    In other words, the main problem with politics is that the public is complacent with superficial standards of determining the quality of policies, debates and candidates. And your answer to that complacency is "oh well, that's the way it is - I guess will just have to keep measuring debates the way the people I think are stupid do." No thanks. That's what keeps the US below its potential in the first place.

  5. #105
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Nah, I judge who "won" by my own standards, not by how it affects the majority of other voters and that's how it should be, at least for me. I care about substance - with how a candidate effects the public constituting a part, not the totality, of that standard.

    You're right, the majority of voters use superficial measures and I, like you it seems, view that as problematic. Now, I can either - to use the common quote - be the change I wish to see and judge the debate by more quality standards or I can judge the debate by looks like the American people who, as you said, "are content with nonsense" so that I increase my role in maintaining the problem. I have done and will continue to do the former.

    In other words, the main problem with politics is that the public is complacent with superficial standards of determining the quality of policies, debates and candidates. And your answer to that complacency is "oh well, that's the way it is - I guess will just have to keep measuring debates the way the people I think are stupid do." No thanks. That's what keeps the US below its potential in the first place.
    The thing is, this audience of this debate was tens of millions of Americans, not a squad of debate team judges. In terms of substance you and I probably agree that the President was less full of **** than Romney was, but that standard is completely irrelevant. Who REALLY won the debate is whoever seized the opportunity to help himself the most in terms of affecting the polls and the final election outcome. And last night, it was Romney.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #106
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Obama was definitely holding back. When Romney was talking about cooperating with the Democrats in the Massachusetts legislature, the unspoken elephant in the room was that the Republicans in congress have been astoundingly obstructionist in the last few years. The cooperation that Romney enjoyed has not been extended to the president. There were several such incidents where Obama chose not to say something true that would have caused conflict.

    The biggest thing that I disliked was how both candidates kept repeating statistics that the other discredited. Obama repeated the 5 trillion tax cut after Romney said he wouldn't do it, and Romney repeated the 700 billion "stealing" from medicare, even though the president said that wasn't true. That they stuck to their narrative instead of really responding to the other (though the president did a little such responding), made them both look bad.

    Romney also largely spoke in vague statements. What exactly does "championing" small businesses mean? It's a good soundbite, but Romney really didn't make his actual plan very clear. He spent a lot more time talking about what he wouldn't do than what he would. Also his math is impossible.

    As a matter of confidence and focus, Romney looked better. A later review shows that he was just blowing smoke. I'm not sure which one wins under those conditions. Probably neither one wins anything until Nov. 6.
    I've come to the conclusion that neither won.

    And I got the sense that Obama was not adequately prepared for Romney to come at him like that. He looked shocked, annoyed and just generally, as I said, unprepared. I blame that lack of preparation on his strategists or whoever lowered his expectations of Romney. At the same time, I blame Obama's inability to adjust in the situation on Obama and nobody else. He should have assessed the situation, thought quickly and come back at Romney. Instead, he just looked pissed off and weak.

    I'm optimistic about the second debate since Obama and his strategists know what they're dealing with. However, I think the best thing for Romney to do next time would be to dial it back in a way that makes the President, who will no doubt be more aggressive, look overly aggressive and disrespectful. If Romney does that and continues to switch up his debate style, he could come out on top.

  7. #107
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    Re: Who Won?

    These may all just be excuses for why your chosen guy turned out a poor performance. Romney clearly took this debate and now the Obama diehards have to chalk it up to "ignorant voters". Of course, they're ignorant because they don't worship at the same alter you do.

  8. #108
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    Re: Who Won?

    Romney won. Not a total domination, as Obama did hit him on Medicare and managed to get him on a flip=flop, but yeah, still a Romney victory.

    Curious to see how the polls play out. Only 15% of voters say the debates would change their mind. Maybe those 15% matter.


    We'll know soon enough.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The thing is, this audience of this debate was tens of millions of Americans, not a squad of debate team judges. In terms of substance you and I probably agree that the President was less full of **** than Romney was, but that standard is completely irrelevant. Who REALLY won the debate is whoever seized the opportunity to help himself the most in terms of affecting the polls and the final election outcome. And last night, it was Romney.
    Let me ask you a question: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?

  10. #110
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Let me ask you a question: If the majority is wrong, should you agree with them because they are the majority?
    That's up to you, and each and every one of us to decide how we react to a majority decision. That's not the issue here at all, but a dodge.

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