View Poll Results: Who won tonight's debate?

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  • Barack Obama

    15 12.50%
  • Mitt Romney

    98 81.67%
  • It was a draw

    7 5.83%
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Thread: Who Won?

  1. #91
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Who "won" a presidential debate should be judged based on the effect that it has on the majority of voters, not on the effect it has on you, the individual.

    The majority of voters use superficial measures to decide who won. Ergo, the person who does best in the superficial sense wins the debate. If voters were truly informed on the issues, there would only have been a loser from the debate, and that loser would be the American people.

    Since the American people are content with nonsense, however, we are getting what we (collectively) deserve.
    This, pretty much. Debates are won and lost on style, less substance.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #92
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    To me Romney came across as aggressive without being offensive, which is probably the best outcome for him.
    I think both our confirmation biases are biased, StillBallin. I doubt these debates affect as many as 1% of the vote, though they are interesting.

  3. #93
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    This, pretty much. Debates are won and lost on style, less substance.
    changed to
    elections are won and lost on style, less substance
    only nixon has defied that inclination
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  4. #94
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    changed to
    only nixon has defied that inclination
    Both are largely true.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Who "won" a presidential debate should be judged based on the effect that it has on the majority of voters, not on the effect it has on you, the individual.

    The majority of voters use superficial measures to decide who won. Ergo, the person who does best in the superficial sense wins the debate. If voters were truly informed on the issues, there would only have been a loser from the debate, and that loser would be the American people.

    Since the American people are content with nonsense, however, we are getting what we (collectively) deserve.
    Icanthearyou.....Iamanobamaphile.....LOL.

  6. #96
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    Re: Who Won?

    Romney won, Obama lost.

    Romney didn't win big, Obama didn't lose big, but the gap between because one had a good debate and one had a poor one seems large.

    Mitt shocked me. After 08 and 12's primaries, I was NOT high on him as a debater. I agree with a talking head on CNN who stated that this was unlike anything we've seen from Romney before and his best national debate that he's done.

    I also disagree on the specifics issue. I think he came prepared for that insinuation and actually did a great job of reframing the situation with his statements regarding broad goals and then bipartisan efforts to get the specifics. IF he continues to nail that correctly, which is questionable, then he can manage to deflect the "specifics" attack while simultaneously winning points for presenting himself as someone who wishes to smooth the partisan divide.

  7. #97
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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I think both our confirmation biases are biased, StillBallin. I doubt these debates affect as many as 1% of the vote, though they are interesting.
    I agree with your second statement. But on the contrary, Romney performed a hell of a lot better than I thought he would. Obama didn't do poorly, but seemed too laid back and on the defensive. As much as I think that Romney is full of ****, I give credit where it's due - he had a solid stage performance.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with your second statement. But on the contrary, Romney performed a hell of a lot better than I thought he would. Obama didn't do poorly, but seemed too laid back and on the defensive. As much as I think that Romney is full of ****, I give credit where it's due - he had a solid stage performance.
    Ya, I hadn't watched Romney speak before. He wasn't bad -- and Obama was far too flat.

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    no. romney won. because Obama did not show up
    the moderator was excellent
    he let them have at each other
    hell, he even allowed Obama to have four more minutes of debate time than romney
    i especially like that he repeatedly narrowed the topics, to keep both from going off on tangents
    He made those debating be the stars, rather than trying to make himself the star of the show. He did a good job MODERATING, not necessarily DIRECTING as people seem to want moderators to do sometimes.

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    Re: Who Won?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    To me Romney came across as aggressive without being offensive, which is probably the best outcome for him.
    Actually this is one of the traits I think highlights why I thought Obama was a strong debater in 08.

    I described it earlier to a friend in stating that Obama had the capacity in debates to be extremely aggressive and attacking while doing so in a very civil and academic tone. It allowed the attacks and aggression to land, but it gives a different emotional response in a viewer than someone doing such in a tone that is emotional or angry/annoyed. It's a rather difficult talent to have, but is very effective.

    Romney, by the way, has been one of those that had a hard time attacking or being aggressive and not coming off emotional or angry or petulent when doing it in his previous debates. It's why I didn't have a lot of expectations for him yesterday. However, he shocked me because he basically pulled off that same tactic that Obama used in '08.

    I also think that is what somewhat helped to throw Obama off his game. His own style was played right back against him, and that's a style that...in part...feeds off making the other person emotional due to the attacks, and thus giving the impression that you're above such things and the more collected one. Obama got a bit flustered, and couldn't get Romney to go onto the full defensive (instead of the attacking defensive stance he was in for most of the debate), and didn't quite seem to know how to react to that style of debate coming his way.

    I think the next debate however will be far closer as the cats out of the bag now in a way in terms of Romney's approach to these debates.

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