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Thread: The real source of our problems....

  1. #51
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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yeah! Saddam never did anything wrong!
    He wasn't a threat to the US in the 2000s... at all.

  2. #52
    global liberation

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    He wasn't a threat to the US in the 2000s... at all.
    I don't consider being a threat to the US as the only criteria for war. Unseating a (twice) genocidal dictator who was selling the food-for-oil is ok with me. I only wish Saddam had left behind some social capital. It might take a generation for things to really get developing in Iraq, even with its vast natural resources.

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't consider being a threat to the US as the only criteria for war. Unseating a (twice) genocidal dictator who was selling the food-for-oil is ok with me. I only wish Saddam had left behind some social capital. It might take a generation for things to really get developing in Iraq, even with its vast natural resources.
    There are dozens of dictators all over the world, many who are worse than Saddam. It certainly wasn't worth the cost. More Iraqis have died in insurgent attacks since we came in in 2003 than under Saddam.

  4. #54
    global liberation

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    There are dozens of dictators all over the world, many who are worse than Saddam. It certainly wasn't worth the cost. More Iraqis have died in insurgent attacks since we came in in 2003 than under Saddam.
    We must prioritize in the liberation of the world. Several factors lead to Saddam being the choice, perhaps foremost is the existence of natural resources that can be used for development instead of rape palaces, cronies, genocide and generally hurting the Iraqi people with their own stuff. Saddam killed everyone who did not become a yes-man, leaving behind no independent businessmen, professors, intellectuals or free thinkers. That is what holds Iraq back today. As soon as it develops some such social capital, I expect development to rival the Asian Tigers.

    As far as deaths:
    Iraq/Iran war: millions
    Iraq/Kuwait war: ?
    Genocide of Kurds: 200k
    Genocide of Marsh Arabs: 50k
    Children who starved due to food-for-oil being sold: 400k

    And that is only counting the big stuff. Not including his wars, and only 'domestic stuff', he can get up to a million since the late 80s. A million at twenty years is 50k/year. The casualties resulting from US invasion, occupation and nation building are not 50k/year. The deaths today are not the result of genocide and the intentional starving of children. The country is trying to get on its feet with some semblence of democratic infrastructure. It is no easy task for such an internally ravaged country to rise again, but I believe that Iraq will become a great country in the next 50 years. There was no hope of that before, only 17 UNSCRs violated and the aforementioned. And he was a huge proponent of ecologic terrorism (sea coral, marsh genocide etc).
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-30-12 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #55
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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Great idea. The defense budget is about 4-5% of GDP today. In my lifetime it has been as high as 8% of GDP. The US government spends about 25% of GDP. I think the chance that the military budget will ever be half of GDP is close to zero. So I really like that you have placed this threat clearly in the future.


    The rules are both very complicated and ever changing. For better accountibility simplify the rules.


    This is laughable. I suspect that if you provided a list of the independent ssources we would discover the usual suspects. What do the people who are responsible for mission performance say? What do the people who provide Congressional oversight say?
    The Congressional Record is one of those sources. 1968-1985 Yes I know a liberal rag
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

    "There are those who will debate the necessity of wilderness, I will not, either you know it in your bones or you are very very old". Aldo Leopold - Sand County Almanac

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    The Congressional Record is one of those sources. 1968-1985 Yes I know a liberal rag
    You have made outrageous claims. And now you give me a source so broad, so sweeping as to be utterly useless. Awesome. Simply awesome. Please show me where in the Congressional Record some fool said the defense budget would be half of the budget. And then show me where anyone with oversight responsibilities said we could cut the defense budget by 30% with no ill effects.

    Not to mention that you are citing from 1968 to 1985. Pardon me while I laugh for a moment. How is this relevant to 2012 or 2013?

    While you are searching I shall remain very skeptical.

  7. #57
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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't consider being a threat to the US as the only criteria for war. Unseating a (twice) genocidal dictator who was selling the food-for-oil is ok with me. I only wish Saddam had left behind some social capital. It might take a generation for things to really get developing in Iraq, even with its vast natural resources.
    Whoa...that kind of thinking has us invading a number of countries right now. Including China.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    No, it is the very nature of the military and government. Waste is policy.
    Either waste, fraud and abuse is illegal or it is policy. Which do you believe it is?
    If it is illegal and you observed it but did not report it why aren't you culpable? Would you fail to report a rape?

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    Okay at least you can see my point. For you or anyone for that matter to say it did not happen just because it did not happen to you is not only rude but myoptic. Your comment of I'm skeptical is much practical.
    I know there are bad people everywhere. I can imagine a veterinary Captain believing he is the King of the World. I can imagine a 3-star general believing he is a minor deity.

    It is interesting to watch how long it takes for some of them to realize they are no longer general officers once they reenter civilian life. For some the transition is very quick and they succeed. For others it takes longer and people wonder why.

  10. #60
    global liberation

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    Re: The real source of our problems....

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Whoa...that kind of thinking has us invading a number of countries right now. Including China.
    No, it wouldn't. It seems you missed my post 3 above yours. Let's be real.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    We must prioritize in the liberation of the world. Several factors lead to Saddam being the choice, perhaps foremost is the existence of natural resources that can be used for development instead of rape palaces, cronies, genocide and generally hurting the Iraqi people with their own stuff. Saddam killed everyone who did not become a yes-man, leaving behind no independent businessmen, professors, intellectuals or free thinkers. That is what holds Iraq back today. As soon as it develops some such social capital, I expect development to rival the Asian Tigers.

    As far as deaths:
    Iraq/Iran war: millions
    Iraq/Kuwait war: ?
    Genocide of Kurds: 200k
    Genocide of Marsh Arabs: 50k
    Children who starved due to food-for-oil being sold: 400k

    And that is only counting the big stuff. Not including his wars, and only 'domestic stuff', he can get up to a million since the late 80s. A million at twenty years is 50k/year. The casualties resulting from US invasion, occupation and nation building are not 50k/year. The deaths today are not the result of genocide and the intentional starving of children. The country is trying to get on its feet with some semblence of democratic infrastructure. It is no easy task for such an internally ravaged country to rise again, but I believe that Iraq will become a great country in the next 50 years. There was no hope of that before, only 17 UNSCRs violated and the aforementioned. And he was a huge proponent of ecologic terrorism (sea coral, marsh genocide etc).

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